Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#1346715 18-Jul-2015 13:31

Handle9: I thought the tight five was better last night, with the scrum obviously a stand out. The goal line maul defense is still a problem, and has been for some years. This appears to be a coaching problem and complaining that a tactic is illegal, when it doesn't get pinged, is a bit weak.

Carter was ok but his lack of pace is a problem. He seems to struggle to make it through the line anymore. The way that the all blacks play a flat backline this is a problem as it means that the inside channel doesn't get as much attention and defenders can slide / rush more easily. This is partly why the outside backs appear to flat, they rely on the first five hitting the line, not standing behind the line. This is what Hansen was alluding to when he was talking post match about Carter shuffling the ball on.

Good analysis. I was surprised when I thought he had openings and didn't take them, same with Dagg, but I wonder if those guys didn't feel they have supporting players close enough behind (not so much Carter on this point).

The forwards WERE good last night, it made a big difference.

Regardless of pace, for me Dagg and DC should be in the RWC and as first choice in their positions.

Naholo did look a little stage frightened to me, regardless of stats, for the Highlanders he has done better (and yes I do understand the difference between test matches and SR). More game time will see that fixed I think.

Nonu's try was something special, he had a lot of work to do, though clearly defensively the Argys didn't quite have the goods this game.

Regarding The rolling maul. You can't really complain when both teams have the same rules, though I do tend to agree it's illegal and shouldn't be part of the game.

networkn

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#1346716 18-Jul-2015 13:34

Yikes:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/70343786/waisake-naholo-out-of-rugby-world-cup-contention-with-leg-injury

Naholo out of RWC contention, broken leg!

Poor Bastard!

blair003

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#1346725 18-Jul-2015 14:04

I thought TJ had an excellent game right from his first box kick, it certainly highlighted the gulf between him/Aaron Smith and Andy Ellis when Ellis came on. Easily his best game in the black jursey.

I was glad to see Dagg start to hit some form and beat a few defenders. I thought Noholo was solid in his FIRST TEST. Stage fright? Bombed a try? Look again. Julian Savea bombed a certain try in the SR final, when Naholo dropped the ball last night it was only a half-chance. Carter will come right, BB will be off the bench in the important games unless DC picks up an injury.

McCaw was everywhere. The number of times he made a tackle then ran hard to back to his position in the middle of the defensive line to make another tackle was hard to believe. Not sure if he has been focusing on that more or if it just noticed it more.

networkn

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#1346726 18-Jul-2015 14:13

McCaw was everywhere. The number of times he made a tackle then ran hard to back to his position in the middle of the defensive line to make another tackle was hard to believe. Not sure if he has been focusing on that more or if it just noticed it more.

It was incredibly noticeable, he was superman last night I thought. One thing I noticed all night is how fast players are getting back to position after the breakdown, REALLY quick.

I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

Handle9

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#1346757 18-Jul-2015 14:44

networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

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#1346758 18-Jul-2015 14:45

Handle9:
networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

It really isn't. But that line is starting to get tired.

tukapa1

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#1346759 18-Jul-2015 14:45

networkn:

McCaw was everywhere. The number of times he made a tackle then ran hard to back to his position in the middle of the defensive line to make another tackle was hard to believe. Not sure if he has been focusing on that more or if it just noticed it more.

It was incredibly noticeable, he was superman last night I thought. One thing I noticed all night is how fast players are getting back to position after the breakdown, REALLY quick.

I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's because he doesn't wear a Crusaders jersey.

The same with your dislike for just about every other non-Crusader that plays the game.

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Handle9

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#1346771 18-Jul-2015 14:47

networkn:
Handle9:
networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

It really isn't. But that line is starting to get tired.

I feel the same way about your endless pushing of very average Crusaders players like Crotty and Ellis.

networkn

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#1346781 18-Jul-2015 15:04

tukapa1:
networkn:

McCaw was everywhere. The number of times he made a tackle then ran hard to back to his position in the middle of the defensive line to make another tackle was hard to believe. Not sure if he has been focusing on that more or if it just noticed it more.

It was incredibly noticeable, he was superman last night I thought. One thing I noticed all night is how fast players are getting back to position after the breakdown, REALLY quick.

I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's because he doesn't wear a Crusaders jersey.

The same with your dislike for just about every other non-Crusader that plays the game.

What Rubbish! I have lots of good things to say about lots of non Crusaders. I wouldn't approve of the way any player played if they played like him regardless of the colour of the jersey he wore, including Black.

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#1346782 18-Jul-2015 15:08

Handle9:
networkn:
Handle9:
networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

It really isn't. But that line is starting to get tired.

I feel the same way about your endless pushing of very average Crusaders players like Crotty and Ellis.

Yah interestingly the most successful coaching in world rugby consider them worthy of a Black jersey right now. I'd agree right now Ellis isn't showing as well as Smith or Perenara, but I disagree with the sentiment he shouldn't be in contention to show his worth.

As for Crotty, we will have to agree to disagree

Handle9

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#1346785 18-Jul-2015 15:17

networkn:
Handle9:
networkn:
Handle9:
networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

It really isn't. But that line is starting to get tired.

I feel the same way about your endless pushing of very average Crusaders players like Crotty and Ellis.

Yah interestingly the most successful coaching in world rugby consider them worthy of a Black jersey right now. I'd agree right now Ellis isn't showing as well as Smith or Perenara, but I disagree with the sentiment he shouldn't be in contention to show his worth.

As for Crotty, we will have to agree to disagree

They may be in the team but every time they have a bad game it's either "not that bad" or "not his fault, it's the forwards fault" (paraphrasing). If Aaron Cruden misses a kick the sky is falling. When Carter misses 2 or 3 like he did last night it doesn't get mentioned.

Love the passion but for you to get indignant when someone points out your bias towards the Crusaders and dislike of just about anyone who plays for the Chiefs is a bit much.

tukapa1

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#1346800 18-Jul-2015 15:33

networkn:
Handle9:
networkn:
Handle9:
networkn: I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's the red and black eye patch getting in the way :p

It really isn't. But that line is starting to get tired.

I feel the same way about your endless pushing of very average Crusaders players like Crotty and Ellis.

Yah interestingly the most successful coaching in world rugby consider them worthy of a Black jersey right now. I'd agree right now Ellis isn't showing as well as Smith or Perenara, but I disagree with the sentiment he shouldn't be in contention to show his worth.

As for Crotty, we will have to agree to disagree

Ellis is the 5th choice halfback in the country at best, and he's only that high because the Blues sucked. When you say he isn't showing as well as Smith or Perenara right now then that really does show how one eyed you are.

If Kerr-Barlow and Pulu hadn't been injured Ellis would be trying to figure out what he was going to do with his life now instead of being gifted a couple of cheap international caps.

There are 43 pages of posts in this thread which show your general inability to look outside the Crusaders.

As for Dagg, your constant support of him at 15 instead of Ben Smith is utterly ridiculous. Why you would push the best fullback in the country to the wing to accommodate Dagg is beyond me when there are so many outstanding players backing up in the wings.

In fact, Dagg shouldn't even make the squad because Beauden Barrett is a much better fullback right now and would cover fullback if Smith was forced off.

Handle9's comment about no mention of DC missing those kicks last night is spot on. Your criticism of BB and AC in the past when they miss a kick has been constant. Your silence on DC's misses last night is hypocritical.

I have to disagree with Handle9 about Crotty however, I think he has the potential to become the Conrad Smith replacement with a bit of work and time.

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#1346856 18-Jul-2015 16:47

tukapa1:
networkn:

McCaw was everywhere. The number of times he made a tackle then ran hard to back to his position in the middle of the defensive line to make another tackle was hard to believe. Not sure if he has been focusing on that more or if it just noticed it more.

It was incredibly noticeable, he was superman last night I thought. One thing I noticed all night is how fast players are getting back to position after the breakdown, REALLY quick.

I don't rate Messam, for some reason he raises my hackles something fierce, but boy does he give good Haka!

It's because he doesn't wear a Crusaders jersey.

The same with your dislike for just about every other non-Crusader that plays the game.

Came here to hear how awesome Dagg is, (a bit silent on that last week). Was not disappointed.

networkn

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#1346868 18-Jul-2015 17:05

Ellis is the 5th choice halfback in the country at best, and he's only that high because the Blues sucked. When you say he isn't showing as well as Smith or Perenara right now then that really does show how one eyed you are.

Ellis has had a long history of performing well. You are entitled to disagree, but you are disagreeing with a LOT of other people who felt he was hard done by the last few years with TKW, Wepu and other players put in front of him. He has not played well this year, and if you read my comments I have alluded and outrightly said it MULTIPLE times. I feel he still deserves a look in, because lots of players haven't played well at SR level for years and played well in the black jersey (and as I have said MANY times here I support players who have delivered before, having another go at performing again). I'll stand by that stance every day of the week and twice on Sundays, because it's FACT. LAST year I don't think Perenara didn't play THAT well at AB's level or particularly well at SR level either. TJP himself has admitted it. He is a different player this year and I support him being second choice to Smith. Personally I'd like to see Ellis get 50+ minutes before deciding but we have a very short season and it may not be possible.

If Kerr-Barlow and Pulu hadn't been injured Ellis would be trying to figure out what he was going to do with his life now instead of being gifted a couple of cheap international caps.

Not sure I entirely agree with this, but they ARE injured so what's your point? To suggest Steve Hansen would give him charity at this stage is laughable.

There are 43 pages of posts in this thread which show your general inability to look outside the Crusaders.

Absolutely disagree here. I am a Crusaders fan, no bones about it, but given that most of the year is SR and Crusaders ARE the most successful team in the competition, it's not unreasonable for arguments to be made that those team members be considered above other franchises. But comments to suggest I can't look outside the Crusaders isn't in any way reasonable considering I have lots of good comments to make about lots of other teams players. I rate Chiefs Lock Brodie Rettalick as the best in the world in his position right now for example. Smith as #1 Halfback and other Smith as first choice #14. Savea on Wing, Conrad Smith as 13 no questions asked. Have you seen me suggest anyone in 12 as first choice from the Crusaders? Nope, simply because other franchises have stronger players in those positions.

As for Dagg, your constant support of him at 15 instead of Ben Smith is utterly ridiculous. Why you would push the best fullback in the country to the wing to accommodate Dagg is beyond me when there are so many outstanding players backing up in the wings.

In fact, Dagg shouldn't even make the squad because Beauden Barrett is a much better fullback right now and would cover fullback if Smith was forced off.

This is actually pretty simple. I believe a best of team includes BOTH of them. Ben Smith has been AWESOME on the wing and great in the the 15 Jersey, but he has been better on the wing. Disagree about Barrett at full back, what evidence do you have to support such a claim?

Handle9's comment about no mention of DC missing those kicks last night is spot on. Your criticism of BB and AC in the past when they miss a kick has been constant. Your silence on DC's misses last night is hypocritical.

I had a lot to say about the game, and I made comments subsequently about points that occurred to me later like Nonus try. I think you are looking for something that quite frankly just doesn't exist. I have made comments about Barretts kicking for the positive when he was kicking well. Pretty sure I was vocal about it here at the time. Cruden isn't a natural goal kicker to me, NOTHING to do with the Chiefs or what team he plays for. He lacks the natural relaxed style that great kickers have and I have voiced those concerns before. He is also a specialist 10 when BB plays reasonably well in lots of positions. I didn't make comments about every element of the game, including Carters kicking, but to suggest that was bias is what is nonsense and screams of looking to pick a scrap.

I have to disagree with Handle9 about Crotty however, I think he has the potential to become the Conrad Smith replacement with a bit of work and time.

We agree about this, 13 isn't his natural position but hard to see him getting ahead of SBW and especially Nonu for 12. He has an excellent Rugby brain and decent leadership skills so I agree about him potentially at 13. The fact he can play 12, 13, and 14 (though obviously not a first or even second choice on the wing) makes him worthwhile having along.

tukapa1

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#1346880 18-Jul-2015 17:28

networkn:

If Kerr-Barlow and Pulu hadn't been injured Ellis would be trying to figure out what he was going to do with his life now instead of being gifted a couple of cheap international caps.

Not sure I entirely agree with this, but they ARE injured so what's your point? To suggest Steve Hansen would give him charity at this stage is laughable.

My point is that Pulu and Kerr-Barlow were unavailable to be picked because of injury. They both would have been picked ahead of Ellis.

Last week Smith and Perenara were unavailable to be picked because of the Super XV final and Hansen obviously wanted to give Smith another weeks rest.

So, when three of the top four halfbacks are unavailable, you start with the best remaining and then look for someone to make up numbers. That was Ellis's role.

Do you get my point now?

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