Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2766562 25-Aug-2021 15:57

rippa:

Don't see a lot of diff between our top 3 halfbacks, Smith, Perenara & Weber... Smith's pass is a little bit quicker than the other two, but they are both faster than him, also Perenara is the much bigger halfback of the 3, so he's more powerful through tackles making him very dangerous near the other teams goal line.

What annoys me about Smith is his obsession for box kicking, even if a player executes an accurate box kick you only have a 50/50 chance of getting it back, also you slightly overweight the ball downfield you end up giving easy possession away... I like to see a 9 vary his tactics behind the scrum & rucks, would start Perenara or Weber in the halfback slot.

A little bit quicker? Really? Perenara would have time for a nap between picking up the ball and distributing it sometimes (relative to Smith). The accuracy of his passes are considerably lower too. Have you ever seen Perenara skip 3 players to the outside across the face of 3-4 defenders to allow a score in the corner?

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rippa

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#2766569 25-Aug-2021 16:32

hahaha, you've got to be kidding me, also have seen Smith have some real shockers with his passing game... pointless just passing the ball out to backs to spread it wide all the time when the opposition are standing on top of you which Smith tends to do a lot.

rippa

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#2766573 25-Aug-2021 16:41

Jas777:

If anything the All Blacks need to be getting the replacement for all 3 ready. Because all 3 are going to go around the same time I would think.

Good point mate... Smith is 32, Weber 30 & Perena 29.

It constantly amazes me when an AB incumbent retires in any of the positions there is always someone that steps up & does a great job in their place, no other country has the outstanding rugby depth we have.

rippa

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#2766833 26-Aug-2021 08:47

Networkn - not saying Smith hasn't got a fast flat pass... but the bloke is so predictable most of the time, all he tends to do is pass & box kick, to keep the defence in two minds he needs to mix his game up more with darting runs around the edges, grubbers & pop kicks too.

networkn

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#2766837 26-Aug-2021 08:53

rippa:

Networkn - not saying Smith hasn't got a fast flat pass... but the bloke is so predictable most of the time, all he tends to do is pass & box kick, to keep the defence in two minds he needs to mix his game up more with darting runs around the edges, grubbers & pop kicks too.

I don't really consider him that predictable. Yes, he does box kick a lot (Andy Ellis was the worst for this despite him being an otherwise excellent Half-Back), but the number of plays he has enabled over the years, means I don't think opposition consider him predictable. That last match against Australia he was fairly unpredictable IMO.

rippa

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#2766854 26-Aug-2021 09:28

On most occasions he is predictable, in general he just basically passes & kicks... yeah, he did mix it up more against Aussie with those couple of runs down the blindside which was good to see, would like him to execute the grubber kick as well, it's a very good strategy against flat defences.

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#2766858 26-Aug-2021 09:32

rippa:

On most occasions he is predictable, in general he just basically passes & kicks... yeah, he did mix it up more against Aussie with those couple of runs down the blindside which was good to see, would like him to execute the grubber kick as well, it's a very good strategy against flat defences.

The majority of the time, he is nearish the midfield, which is usually (not always) the most congested area of the field. Even if there is space there, there still has to be someone to go and get it, and again, if you are concerned about the 50/50 nature of the box pass, I'd say the chances of that coming off would be <20% because not only do you require there to be space, the kick needs to be collectable both in quality and availability of a player, followed by support players to clean the next ruck.

rippa

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#2767053 26-Aug-2021 15:27

With the league type defence in rugby these days the grubber is a great option to break down defence systems, as there's always a ton of space behind with everyone up so flat except the fullback sweeping, some players are awful at executing grubbers, you see so many of them kicking it directly into an opposition player, if it's not on don't kick it, need to grubber between them weighting the ball well... doesn't matter whether Smith or any other player put in a grubber wide or not of the ruck it's all about reading the right time to do it.

Yeah, there's probably less than a 50/50 chance of getting the ball back from a very accurate box kick, which is why I don't like them overdone, must like a low percentage 50/50 pass or forced pass, again if it's not on go to ground & set the ball up again etc.

rippa

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#2767060 26-Aug-2021 15:37

Also all the backs should be anticipating that any of them might put a grubber in... our backs would be moving forward too, whereas they have to stop, turn around & scramble back, if it's an accurate well weighted grubber we either win the ball back or apply huge pressure is on that player at the breakdown, so at the very least we're likely to win a penalty.

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#2767105 26-Aug-2021 16:28

rippa:

Also all the backs should be anticipating that any of them might put a grubber in... our backs would be moving forward too, whereas they have to stop, turn around & scramble back, if it's an accurate well weighted grubber we either win the ball back or apply huge pressure is on that player at the breakdown, so at the very least we're likely to win a penalty.

Last time I checked, completion stats for breakdown and tackles was well over 85%. It's a very low percentage play.

I am not sure where I could stats for the number of times that a Grubber resulted in possession for the attacking team, but my gut says it would be next to never. When it comes off it's spectacular, but it's certainly not a strategy I'd like to see significantly increased.

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#2767106 26-Aug-2021 16:31

rippa:

With the league type defence in rugby these days the grubber is a great option to break down defence systems, as there's always a ton of space behind with everyone up so flat except the fullback sweeping, some players are awful at executing grubbers, you see so many of them kicking it directly into an opposition player, if it's not on don't kick it, need to grubber between them weighting the ball well... doesn't matter whether Smith or any other player put in a grubber wide or not of the ruck it's all about reading the right time to do it.

Yeah, there's probably less than a 50/50 chance of getting the ball back from a very accurate box kick, which is why I don't like them overdone, must like a low percentage 50/50 pass or forced pass, again if it's not on go to ground & set the ball up again etc.

What we don't see much of, even at times where I feel there is a need for it, is the pick and go. I know rugby has moved on somewhat, but even taking contact and recycling the ball seems to be not done as often, with players keen to throw low percentage passes instead.

For me the balance isn't quite right, but it's really easy to sit in my chair and look at a birds-eye view and wonder why the players don't x or y or Z.

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#2767158 26-Aug-2021 18:48

networkn:

NZR aren't stupid. If they genuinely felt he had zero chance of doing something positive for the AB's, do you really think they would have hired him?

don't read too much into it. we're in a pandemic. it takes a lot in a pandemic to hire a new coach. status quo is the path of least resistance in a pandemic. that doesn't mean he's no good or good but good enough. it's just how things work in crisis mode.

rippa

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#2767469 27-Aug-2021 10:57

networkn:

rippa:

Also all the backs should be anticipating that any of them might put a grubber in... our backs would be moving forward too, whereas they have to stop, turn around & scramble back, if it's an accurate well weighted grubber we either win the ball back or apply huge pressure is on that player at the breakdown, so at the very least we're likely to win a penalty.

I am not sure where I could stats for the number of times that a Grubber resulted in possession for the attacking team, but my gut says it would be next to never. When it comes off it's spectacular, but it's certainly not a strategy I'd like to see significantly increased.

Because in general grubbers are poorly executed by players... to be good at anything it has to be practiced a heap of times, clearly that's not the case for a fair few of our backs.

If there was a real weakness in Hansen's & also Foster's coaching it was a lack of intelligent tactical kicking & not really wanting to use the drop goal as an option.

rippa

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#2767476 27-Aug-2021 11:09

networkn:

rippa:

With the league type defence in rugby these days the grubber is a great option to break down defence systems, as there's always a ton of space behind with everyone up so flat except the fullback sweeping, some players are awful at executing grubbers, you see so many of them kicking it directly into an opposition player, if it's not on don't kick it, need to grubber between them weighting the ball well... doesn't matter whether Smith or any other player put in a grubber wide or not of the ruck it's all about reading the right time to do it.

Yeah, there's probably less than a 50/50 chance of getting the ball back from a very accurate box kick, which is why I don't like them overdone, must like a low percentage 50/50 pass or forced pass, again if it's not on go to ground & set the ball up again etc.

What we don't see much of, even at times where I feel there is a need for it, is the pick and go. I know rugby has moved on somewhat, but even taking contact and recycling the ball seems to be not done as often, with players keen to throw low percentage passes instead.

For me the balance isn't quite right, but it's really easy to sit in my chair and look at a birds-eye view and wonder why the players don't x or y or Z.

I basically mentioned the same thing earlier in the thread about our lack of phases through the forwards, pick & go etc... it's clearly going to suck in their forwards creating better front foot ball & more space for our backs to attack, our forwards definitely need to be giving the backs a much better platform.

Nothing wrong with good constructive criticism about the ABs if you think something is wrong or doesn't make sense.

You say rugby has moved on somewhat... one thing that will never change though is that's it's always going to crucial for a forward pack to set a good platform for the playmakers 9 & 10, if your tight-five dominate you'll win on most occasions.

rippa

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#2767494 27-Aug-2021 11:48

Batman:

networkn:

NZR aren't stupid. If they genuinely felt he had zero chance of doing something positive for the AB's, do you really think they would have hired him?

don't read too much into it. we're in a pandemic. it takes a lot in a pandemic to hire a new coach. status quo is the path of least resistance in a pandemic. that doesn't mean he's no good or good but good enough. it's just how things work in crisis mode.

No doubt this delta virus is very scary for everyone... but this is more about having the right people at the top who have the skills to select the best candidate available, same principal applies for any type of organization.

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