Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2767549 27-Aug-2021 13:18

It will be interesting if we don't do as well for the next 2-3 tests, to watch people get themselves all in a froth over Fosters extension, whilst they blindly ignore how many first-choice players we have left home and who are injured. If we DO well, then people will say Foster is crap because anyone could coach the AB's :)

rippa

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#2767721 27-Aug-2021 16:41

Whether we have key players missing or not Foster is a crap coach... fact is as said NZ have a lot more talent & depth than any other country in the world, AB's have never really got thrashed, but we have put 50 plus points on the Boks a few times, our main rivals over the years.

wratterus

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#2767729 27-Aug-2021 16:57

@networkn what's your thoughts on Foster? I was a bit disappointed to see the contract extension so early on tbh. I am a bit of a Razor fan....I think the ABs were looking a bit stale for a few years, well before we lost in Japan. Most other teams had caught up to us fitness wise which IMO was the big factor with Hansen in the earlier days - how many games did we win in the last 20 mins?

Feels like there is a bit of an 'old boys club' @ NZR. Not that you want to biff everyone out and start from scratch by any means, but I think we really want something a bit fresh & different, and think Razor would have brought that. Hopefully he's still here in a few years...

networkn

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#2767730 27-Aug-2021 16:58

rippa:

Whether we have key players missing or not Foster is a crap coach... fact is as said NZ have a lot more talent & depth than any other country in the world, AB's have never really got thrashed, but we have put 50 plus points on the Boks a few times, our main rivals over the years.

I pretty much strongly disagree with every word you've written above.

rippa

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#2767744 27-Aug-2021 17:14

networkn:

rippa:

Whether we have key players missing or not Foster is a crap coach... fact is as said NZ have a lot more talent & depth than any other country in the world, AB's have never really got thrashed, but we have put 50 plus points on the Boks a few times, our main rivals over the years.

I pretty much strongly disagree with every word you've written above.

Really ? ...what makes you think Foster is a good coach ?

You don't agree we have a lot more talent & depth than any other country in the world ? ...only have to see the huge amount of talent running around in the NPC .

Boks easily have the best win/loss record against us compared to any other country & you're saying they're not our main rivals ?

Grunta47

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#2767754 27-Aug-2021 17:35

I think Foster is an average coach, nothing great but nothing too bad.

Yep, he was poor at Chiefs but has been in the ABs environment for a long time and so will have the trust of a lot of the current players.

Razor is too much of a risk. Yep a good coach, but still quite young. Remember the last time we took the risk of giving the top job to a young up and coming coach? Worst decision ever.

Foster has a relatively strong support team around him and should succeed on that alone. I wasn’t a fan of him being selected, but when you sit down and do the analysis he is the obvious choice.

Regardless, unless we win every game between now and then , there will most likely be a change of coach after the next World Cup

networkn

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#2767772 27-Aug-2021 18:14

wratterus:

@networkn what's your thoughts on Foster? I was a bit disappointed to see the contract extension so early on tbh. I am a bit of a Razor fan....I think the ABs were looking a bit stale for a few years, well before we lost in Japan. Most other teams had caught up to us fitness wise which IMO was the big factor with Hansen in the earlier days - how many games did we win in the last 20 mins?

Feels like there is a bit of an 'old boys club' @ NZR. Not that you want to biff everyone out and start from scratch by any means, but I think we really want something a bit fresh & different, and think Razor would have brought that. Hopefully he's still here in a few years...

I quite like him. I don't think he's crap. He may not be exciting as a choice, and perhaps things *may* not change as dramatically under Foster as Razer (who I do highly rate). I think he is very intelligent and has a good relationship with the players and they are happy to follow him. Scott McLeod however, I don't rate as a defense coach, I never understood his appointment. I think with 2 Bled's, a 73% win rate, and a record win against the Wallabies with the AB's basically trending in the right direction with improvements each game, it wasn't unreasonable to take the doubt out of the coaching teams minds with so much other uncertainty going on. For better or worse, it's what happened.

I have two issues with Razor which are related.

One, he has no international coaching experience (which Foster "sort of" has related to his international assistant coaching of the AB's, and tenure under Steve Hansen who did have, and understands what it is to coach against international teams), and, secondly, that I worry he was taking the AB's too early, and would end up with a less than stellar result and flame out a result. I want him to take over in 2023 after the RWC win or lose, but as much as I like him in charge of the Crusaders, feel he should have taken a 2-year overseas stint.

I believe had he been given the AB's job and then Covid hit, people would have made all sorts of concessions for him, that they aren't making of Foster, which is a bit rubbish, but it's how people are.

I understand some of people's issues with Foster, esp if you are a Chiefs fan, but their wretched run under him, wasn't entirely his fault either. I do think people need to get some perspective, he can't have been assistant coach if he was totally incompetent esp not over that length of time and I think he has developed professionally quite a bit. I will admit to not knowing much about or paying any attention to Foster when he was at the Chiefs as back then I usually only watched SR at the Quarters and mostly was interested in the Crusaders and who might potentially beat them.

For now, I am happy to give Foster, the benefit of the doubt, and he can have my support for as long as I can see AB's trending in the right direction.

One thing I absolutely don't like is the length of time they have put players out of position. Jordie on the wing felt like a terrible idea, Reiko at Center, etc.. Having said that, Havilli would not have been my pick at 12 and I think that has great potential.

I agree that the gap between the AB's and the rest of the world is much smaller, and the rush defense for which there isn't really a magic fix. Argentina beating us was unfortunate, but given they have beaten every other tier1 team at least once, it wasn't out of the question, and we got surprised and outpassioned and didn't adjust. It happened in the Semi too. If that continues, I'll lose a fair bit of faith. We also don't have the same calibre of player in a few positions as we had back then.

Basically, it's multi factorial and complex and for now, I am happy with Foster as our coach, but if he got hit by a bus and Razer replaced him, I think we would be Ok as well.

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networkn

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#2767774 27-Aug-2021 18:31

rippa:

You don't agree we have a lot more talent & depth than any other country in the world ? ...only have to see the huge amount of talent running around in the NPC .

No, I don't believe we are clearly ahead at International level the way we were a few years ago. There is no comparison between NPC and Test level and our test level stocks are pretty low in some areas. You only need to look at our second and third option for some positions and see how massive the gap is between them to understand that. In our forwards particularly. We haven't had a Kaino type 6 for a long time, despite our long search and many people tried there. 8 has also been pretty average.

I personally believe that had we of played England 3 times at the RWC, we would have won 2 and lost 1, and had we of gotten past England, we would have beaten SA in the Final. It's all guessing of course, we will never know. Every time we play someone, even a team we have played a lot, the variables that change in each match are so huge, it's nigh impossible to do a comparison.

Boks easily have the best win/loss record against us compared to any other country & you're saying they're not our main rivals ?

Not in the last 10-15 years. AU beat us more regularly. When was the last time you saw NZ beat AU 60-0?

SA right now, and possibly England are probably most likely to beat us (IMO). I don't think we will get caught out by Argentina again for a long time, though I don't believe games will have big points differences any more like they might have in the past.

I think we are prone to lapses in focus and concentration as a team, that didn't exist whilst Richie was Captain (and the other leaders in the team at the time). I don't think we have the same stern backbone that the team had back then and that is something I'd like to see Foster work on with the team. I think he can do that. Discipline has long been a bone of contention for me as well, for the AB's and the Crusaders, and Robertson hasn't got that under control, which means he either can't, or won't.

rippa

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#2767996 28-Aug-2021 11:39

Grunta47: Razor is too much of a risk. Yep a good coach, but still quite young. Remember the last time we took the risk of giving the top job to a young up and coming coach? Worst decision ever

What ? ...Razor has won 5 Super Rugby tiles & obviously has very good man management skills, which is a big part of coaching... he's hardly too young, the bloke is 47 edging up to 50.

networkn

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#2768012 28-Aug-2021 11:54

rippa:

Grunta47: Razor is too much of a risk. Yep a good coach, but still quite young. Remember the last time we took the risk of giving the top job to a young up and coming coach? Worst decision ever

What ? ...Razor has won 5 Super Rugby tiles & obviously has very good man management skills, which is a big part of coaching... he's hardly too young, the bloke is 47 edging up to 50.

Sure, with one of the strongest (though not always the strongest) Squads in the Rugby world at that level. With Foster it's 'an idiot could get good results out of the AB's he's a bad coach' and with Robertson 'he has good man management skills and 'he is a very good coach'. Your views are quite conflicting. As I have said 10 or more times before, I think Robertson is an excellent coach, I am very glad he is coaching, but he is far from flawless. He has either encouraged, failed to recognise or failed to resolve the huge discipline areas the Crusaders have been guilty of under his leadership. I want to see him get a chance with the AB's and I am excited to see what he can do with them, but I am also not convinced his results would differ wildly from that of Foster with the current Squad and in the current conditions. If anything, there is a chance he would have won even less, as I expect he would potentially be changing quite a few things and that can result in losses.

Basically, it's not that Foster isn't a good coach, it's that you don't like him, because under him the Chiefs didn't do well. Steve Hansen took him anyway and went on to form one of the most dominant Rugby sides ever (if not ever) and you are wildly underestimating Fosters part in that.

rippa

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#2768013 28-Aug-2021 11:55

Grunta47: I think Foster is an average coach, nothing great but nothing too bad. Yep, he was poor at Chiefs but has been in the ABs environment for a long time and so will have the trust of a lot of the current players. Razor is too much of a risk. Yep a good coach, but still quite young. Remember the last time we took the risk of giving the top job to a young up and coming coach? Worst decision ever. Foster has a relatively strong support team around him and should succeed on that alone. I wasn’t a fan of him being selected, but when you sit down and do the analysis he is the obvious choice. Regardless, unless we win every game between now and then , there will most likely be a change of coach after the next World Cup

Just because Foster was part of Hansen coaching staff doesn't make him the obvious choice as head coach.

Wasn't impressed with Hansen's coaching going into the last year or so leading up to the last WC... he was playing musical chairs far too much with our starting team so we lost a lot of flow & continuity to our game, the Boks who don't have the talent we have played with a settled team & ending winning the Rugby Championship & WC.

We really missed the boat by not selecting a whole new coaching staff... reckon razor & Tony Brown are two of the best coaches we have, both have very good rugby brains, ideally I'd have them as AB coaches, also wouldn't matter to me which one was head coach, have real respect for both of them

networkn

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#2768025 28-Aug-2021 12:14

Just because Foster was part of Hansen coaching staff doesn't make him the obvious choice as head coach.

I don't think it was taken as 'obvious' both coaches were given interviews and asked to put forward a plan. The board preferred Fosters plan, and there was obviously some weight to continuity which they valued, which I agree with.

Wasn't impressed with Hansen's coaching going into the last year or so leading up to the last WC... he was playing musical chairs far too much with our starting team so we lost a lot of flow & continuity to our game, the Boks who don't have the talent we have played with a settled team & ending winning the Rugby Championship & WC.

We really missed the boat by not selecting a whole new coaching staff... reckon razor & Tony Brown are two of the best coaches we have, both have very good rugby brains, ideally I'd have them as AB coaches, also wouldn't matter to me which one was head coach, have real respect for both of them

Steve Hansen was trying to innovate to give the AB's an edge. He wasn't happy how particularly combinations were operating together and was trying to also find a counter for the rush defense. Yes he made some mistakes, but I don't necessarily say people aren't 'good' because they are trying and making mistakes. I don't think it suddenly doesn't make him a good coach.

Tony Brown is a brilliant Rugby mind, and perhaps he would be good, but I think it's exceptionally unlikely Brown and Robertson would coach the AB's together. They are both strong personality head coaches. It's very unlikely it would work well IMO.

I am however, very glad that Dave Rennie wasn't offered or given the job.

rippa

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#2768133 28-Aug-2021 16:08

Innovation isn't about playing musical chairs for well over a year consistently, by doing that we were always going to lack cohesion as an unit at the RWC... Innovation is basically about using a tactic during the match that's going to surprise the opposition, therefore applying huge pressure on them... thought when Hansen was coach we hardly used a smart kicking game to break down the rushing defence.

Yeah, we can only surmise how compatible the Brown/Robertson combo would be... if they don't get on it certainly won't work.

Ok Foster isn't a crap coach, but he is a very average one, the bloke never won a Super title for the Chiefs, when Rennie came in to do his role as coach at the Chiefs he changed some of the players in the squad, then straightaway won two Super rugby titles in a row... like players, coaches should be selected on merit as well.

rippa

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#2768134 28-Aug-2021 16:11

Getting really peeved off with this site... tried to post several times in a row, but they all disappeared, finally a couple of them have worked.

tukapa1

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#2768154 28-Aug-2021 18:13

rippa:

Getting really peeved off with this site... tried to post several times in a row, but they all disappeared, finally a couple of them have worked.

Maybe you should offer up your crystal ball to Foster. Or if you prefer working on hindsight hopefully you have a time machine you can lend to Foster.

To be honest you don't really sound like you have a lot of experience in coaching representative rugby. You do, however, sound like a passionate NZ rugby supporter which is great. Doesn't mean you know better than those with experience however, otherwise chuck your name in the hat next time the coaching job comes up.

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