Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2811190 11-Nov-2021 16:49

@handle9 who are your predictions for who the AB's will field over the next two tests against Ireland and France? Do you think we have the goods to win both matches?

I'll be particularly interested to see who starts as Hooker, 9 and 10. I think it will be Jordie at fullback, I'd probably put Reiko and Reece on the wings, but Jordan has played well too I imagine he will play off the bench. Havilli and ALB at Center. Whitelock and Retallick.

I saw commentary online that our attack hasn't evolved under Foster. I am not how I feel about that. I can see why people feel that way, but I think the rush defense is employed so much because it's effective. No-one has really managed to nullify it yet.

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#2811418 12-Nov-2021 08:08

I’m not surprised they have gone the way they have. It’s the form team, with Akira and Havilli paying the price for a lack of physicality.

Reiko is pretty clearly the form centre in the group and has come a long way in the last couple of years. He’s still got a way to go but he can make plays at centre no one else in NZ can do. Ennor was god awful against Italy. Hopefully he gets a decent run in super rugby, he looks terrible at the moment.

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#2811453 12-Nov-2021 09:30

Handle9: I’m not surprised they have gone the way they have. It’s the form team, with Akira and Havilli paying the price for a lack of physicality.

Reiko is pretty clearly the form centre in the group and has come a long way in the last couple of years. He’s still got a way to go but he can make plays at centre no one else in NZ can do. Ennor was god awful against Italy. Hopefully he gets a decent run in super rugby, he looks terrible at the moment.

That's quite different to how I feel. I know you think I just write off Reiko for the sake of it, but he is not a center IMO, demonstrated by how much better he plays on the wing. Reikos main strength is his speed, which is back to it's best, and he gets less opportunity in the centers to demonstrate that, especially against teams with rush defense which Ireland will almost certainly bring. Yes Havilli has struggled a bit the past couple of games, but given his form and what he was creating earlier in the season, I think I'd be inclined to pair him and ALB. Reiko is still prone to rushing out of the line in defense, and it doesn't pay dividends as often as it should, and his distribution whilst improved is not up to the same standard as Havilli/ALB.

I think this is the AB's biggest test of the end of year tour, and I remain concerned at our set-piece and inaccuracy at the breakdown. We have turned over a lot of ball this year, and Ireland will almost certainly look to pressure that. If TJP continues to arrive to the breakdown as slowly as he has the last few games, I think we are going to struggle and Reiko may get a good work out in defense :)

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#2812489 14-Nov-2021 09:15

ABs outplayed and beaten by Ireland.

Some teams seem to have worked out how to get under the skin of the ABs and rattle them.

Some key players seemed to be off their game a bit. Perenara, Retallick, Lienert-Brown in particular. Reece seems to be great when his team is ascendant but is a bit of a headless chicken when they’re not.

Over officiating to the point where the TMO may as well have put his monitor on a trolley and wheeled it around the field and turned an 80 minute game into 100 minutes. Missed an obvious penalty on the line where Aki knocked Perenara’s arm from an offside position preventing a try (possibly even yellow for professional foul). Having said that, the disallowed tries were spot on and showed the value of the TMO. But they should only be used when requested by the referee.

Awesome Irish crowd. NZers could take a leaf out of their book.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#2812498 14-Nov-2021 09:37

Amazing performance by Ireland, they were relentless and I was smiling for them at the end. I think the quiet crowd is actually very unnerving for a goal kicker. France will fancy themselves.

Warning: the following statement is going to cause offence to many people. Today during the haka I felt it's time has come and it should be retired. I think its the aggressiveness that I don't like, the shrieking and guttural sounds from some players makes me cringe.

Maybe I'm just haka'd out!?

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#2812681 14-Nov-2021 16:42

Outside of the rugby I was enraged to see Mark Robinson and Shannon Stewart (I think) at the game. Join the world rugby meeting by zoom. There is zero moral justification for them to use MIQ spots.

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#2812704 14-Nov-2021 17:52

Ireland played out of their skins and they clearly wanted it more. I recall when the AB's used to win the collision and batter opponents into submission and then run circles around them for 20 minutes at the end.

Despite the doom and gloom, I felt there were some positives out of that loss. Our defense was immense for long periods. Despite being outmuscled often, we could have won that game.

Luke Pearce would surely be considered one of the best referees in the world right now. His communication is excellent, and whilst he is a little whistle-happy, I thought he did a pretty decent job. Not every call I agreed with, but overall, very good.

Even with the loss, I thought it was one of the best games I've seen this year.

We have a lot to learn, our tactical kicking and under pressure choices need work. I am not sure how much more physical we can be with the team we have, our focus seems to be mobility and skills, but it's leaving us exposed.

I am not sure if the loss is more attributable to a poor game plan or players just not executing properly.

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#2813015 15-Nov-2021 09:56

ESPN stats is the place I have found previously, for stats on players and games, but each time I go there, I can never find them for ages.

Does anyone have a good shortcut or prescribed method? I was keen to look at player stats for the NZ/Ireland game?

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#2813926 16-Nov-2021 16:02

I thought this was quite insightful:

Last weekend demonstrated why I do not agree that Ioane is our best choice at center. His distribution all year long, including for the Blues has been awful (don't even get me started on basic handling errors). It's not like it's a hard thing to fix, quality passing is a fundamental of the game and something you'd be able to vastly improve over 6 months. To be clear, I do feel he has something to offer and I am not blaming him for the loss, there was plenty of it to go around, and the forwards didn't set the platform, and TJ's ponderous service from the base of the ruck put the backs under pressure, who then made bad choices. Havilli isn't quite right. I get the feeling he is more the soft-touch skills type of 12 rather than battering ram, he isn't really designed for that, and so it may be a horses for courses thing. Havilli has pretty decent game management and his tactical kicking has tended at least in SR to be pretty good and accurate. I do wonder if they bring out Tupea this week and try him.

I don't feel Richie Mo'unga is playing to his potential for the AB's. He is capable of brilliance, but there is something not gelling for him. I am not sure if it's a lack of confidence, or whether he is being asked to play a style that isn't natural to him, or he can't handle the pressure, but I had really expected quite a lot better from him this tour.

After watching the game again, there was basically 1 try we should absolutely have scored if not for the forward pass and this would have put us within 2. Discounting that, they scored 1 more try than us, and 3 penalty kicks was the difference. I am annoyed and frustrated we didn't win, but we COULD have won, even with next to no possession. What I do agree with, for those who slag Foster, is that the AB's game plan hasn't really evolved. Hard to know if that is because they don't know how or are using this year to focus on giving as many players match experience and don't want to overcomplicate things, or are bad at using the right game plan against different opposition, or we just don't have the personnel at the right stages to move on.. We have played our least experienced team in a generation and have shattered some records, so it's not all bad news.

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#2813927 16-Nov-2021 16:05

Whilst I am disappointed Canterbury didn't win against Waikato to make the Mitre 10 final, it was probably a fair result (slightly better than fair) based on form throughout the season. They have been pretty average for 2 years and I was surprised they even made the finals this year.

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#2814582 17-Nov-2021 14:40

I have been a little lukewarm on Papailii but he was truly immense in the Ireland game. 28 Tackles is huge and he was good elsewhere including a line break to send Codie Taylor in for a try.

I found it interesting to hear that Foster and Moody felt the forwards had done their part. This is supposedly post-match review. The video above shows that the breakdown cleanouts and the speed at which they got to rucks was a contributing factor to the loss. I'd certainly agree they did their part on defense, the defensive effort was most impressive.

There is a lot of talk about the French looking to use Irelands example to win against the AB's. Not sure how realistic that is. It's one thing to watch and understand what someone does to win against an opponent, it's a whole other thing to reproduce that accurately, especially if that isn't your natural game. In some ways I'd expect a fairly different type of game plan from both teams.

@handle9 so this week, coaches and team under pressure, do we play the same team as last week with injury replacements or do we give people like Sotutu, Ennor, Christie more top tier opportunities in a high-pressure environment? I can't quite decide if I play Cane this week, but inclined to despite Papailli's good effort last week... Pretty likely Smith plays, I'd be inclined if Smith was fit to play him at the start, Moody, Whitelock, Rettalick, and then potentially mix up some of the other positions.

I am glad I am not the coach, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I like the fact Foster has given so much opportunity to as many players as he has, I think we need better depth. I'd probably lean to pairing experience and inexperience and then make it clear during the naming of the team that whilst winning is important to the team, for the long term health of the team, they are trying to build experience and given opportunities.

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#2816851 22-Nov-2021 08:56

Wow, what a disappointment the result in the weekend was for AB's fans. I had hoped for an AB's backlash but yet again our forwards were for most of the game, barely making the gain line and breakdown and cleanouts were poor. We are just turning over so much ball.

I think Gregor Paul hit the nail on the head when he said it looks like the AB's don't know what game plan to implement. I think there is too much the players have been told to 'focus' on and it's not giving them the clarity they usually play with. We saw it a few times with individual players like Dan Carter. They simplified his game plan entirely down to 3 things and it turned him around really well. I am not sure how you do that with an entire team though.

We do look tired and despite some ranting online about how much they are paid and the fact they are professionals, this has been a pretty arduous year under fairly straining conditions. Sports people are human and get tired and mentally tapped out regardless of how much they are paid.

We certainly did look very 'tired' during some parts of that game. The twenty minutes we headed into recover the score line, our forwards really went to town and we were ferocious and the pick and go was really putting the French under great pressure, and we scored well in those periods. Reikos try was an absolute screamer. Totally about speed. Samisoni Taukei'aho was totally physical when he came on. Mo'unga looks lost. I don't really understand it. He has to learn how to change a game when we are going backward. He does it for the Crusaders to great effect. He hasn't really played his natural game at all this year. It's like he has been told to tone it down and he certainly doesn't look like he is having much fun.

The French were magnificent, they deserved the win, no question. It was like watching the All Blacks when they played the way they did a few years ago.

It's not our best season, but we broke both good and bad records. Compared to most the other tier 1 teams we still did better, including the world champions. It's not all bad news, but I am more worried about the coaches than I have been all along. Foster going on about the backs being the problem, when even the forwards and the forwards coach was saying it was the forwards who needed to step up, is concerning (The backs are an issue too). I am unsure if we don't have the personnel in the forwards to dominate any more, or we are just tired.

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#2816852 22-Nov-2021 08:58

I never thought I'd see the day when Romano wasn't wearing Red and Black, but apparently, he is off to the Blues in 2022. Good luck to him, he has been a total machine for Canterbury, and the Crusaders. A legend.

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#2816870 22-Nov-2021 09:34

New Zealand's five 2022 Super Rugby Pacific squads are listed below:

Blues

Hookers: Kurt Eklund, Soane Vikena, Ricky Riccitelli

Props: Alex Hodgman, Jordan Lay, Ofa Tuungafasi, Marcel Renata, Nepo Laulala, Karl Tu’inukuafe

Locks: James Tucker, Josh Goodhue, Sam Darry, Luke Romano.

Loose forwards: Taine Plumtree, Tom Robinson, Akira Ioane, Dalton Papalii, Anton Segner, Hoskins Sotutu, Cameron Suafoa, Adrian Choat

Halfbacks: Finlay Christie, Sam Nock, Taufa Funaki

Inside backs: Beauden Barrett, Harry Plummer, Stephen Perofeta

Midfield: Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, Tanielu Tele’a, Rieko Ioane, Corey Evans, Tamati Tua

Outside backs: Mark Telea, Caleb Clarke, Bryce Heem, AJ Lam, Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens, Zarn Sullivan.

Unavailable due to injury: James Lay

Gains: Tuivasa-Sheck (Warriors); Beauden Barrett (Japan); Jordan Lay (Auckland); Riccitelli (Hurricanes); Romano (Crusaders); Tucker (Brumbies); Funaki (Auckland); Corey Evans (Auckland); Tua (Northland); Suafoa (North Harbour); Choat (Auckland); Segner (Tasman)
On the move: Blake Gibson (Hurricanes); Emoni Narawa (Chiefs); Otere Black (Japan); TJ Faiane (Japan); Gerard Cowley-Tuioti (Japan); Patrick Tuipulotu (Japan); Jacob Pierce (Japan); Ray Nuia (Moana Pasifika), Luteru Tolai (Moana Pasifika); Jonathan Ruru (France); Dillon Hunt (Retired)

Gallagher Chiefs

Hookers: Samisoni Taukei’aho, Bradley Slater, Tyrone Thompson

Props: Aidan Ross, Atunaisa Moli, Angus Ta’avao, Ollie Norris, Sione Mafileo, Reuben O’Neill

Locks: Tupou Vaa’i, Brodie Retallick, Laghlan McWhannell, Naitoa Ah Kuoi, Josh Lord

Loose Forwards: Mitchell Brown, Sam Cane, Luke Jacobson, Simon Parker, Pita Gus Sowakula, Kaylum Boshier, Samipeni Finau

Halfbacks: Brad Weber, Xavier Roe, Cortez Ratima

First five-eighths: Bryn Gatland, Kaleb Trask, Josh Ioane

Midfielders: Alex Nankivell, Anton Lienert-Brown, Quinn Tupaea, Rameka Poihipi, Gideon Wrampling

Outside backs: Jonah Lowe, Emoni Narawa, Etene Nanai-Seturo, Chase Tiatia, Shaun Stevenson, Rivez Reihana

Gains: Ioane (Highlanders); Retallick (Japan); Narawa (Blues); Thompson (Wellington); Finau (Waikato); Ratima (Waikato); Wrampling (Waikato)

On the move: Damian McKenzie (Japan); Lachlan Boshier (Japan); Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi (Crusaders), Kini Naholo (Crusaders); Bailyn Sullivan (Hurricanes); Ezekiel Lindenmuth (Moana Pasifika); Viliame Taulani (England); Nathan Harris (Retired)

Hurricanes

Hookers: Asafo Aumua, Dane Coles, James O’Reilly

Props: Tevita Mafileo, Alex Fidow, Xavier Numia, Tyrel Lomax, Pasilio Tosi, Pouri Rakete-Stones

Locks: James Blackwell, Dom Bird, Scott Scrafton, Justin Sangster

Loose forwards: Brayden Iose, Du’Plessis Kirifi, Reed Prinsep, Blake Gibson, Ardie Savea, Tyler Laubscher, Devan Flanders, Caleb Delany, TK Howden

Halfbacks: Jamie Booth, TJ Perenara, Cam Roigard

First fives: Aidan Morgan, Jackson Garden-Bachop, Ruben Love

Midfield: Teihorangi Walden, Billy Proctor, Peter Umaga-Jensen, Bailyn Sullivan

Outside backs: Julian Savea, Jordie Barrett, Pepesana Patafilo, Salesi Rayasi, Wes Goosen, Josh Moorby

Unavailable due to injury: Owen Franks, Isaia Walker-Leawere

Gains: Bird (France); Gibson (Blues); Walden (Taranaki); Sullivan (Chiefs); Tosi (Bay of Plenty); Sangster (Bay of Plenty); Laubscher (Manawatu); Morgan (Wellington); Roigard (Counties-Manukau); Moorby (Southland); Delaney (Wellington); Howden (Manawatu), Franks (England)
On the move: Ngani Laumape (France); Vince Aso (Japan); Vaea Fifita (England), Ricky Riccitelli (Blues); Gareth Evans (Highlanders); Simon Hickey (Crusaders); Lolagi Visinia (Moana Pasifika), Jonathan Taumateine (Moana Pasifika); Orbyn Leger (Japan); Danny Toala (Moana Pasifika) Luke Campbell (France); Liam Mitchell (Italy); Kane Leaupepe (Retired); Fraser Armstrong (Retired)

Crusaders

Hookers: Codie Taylor, Brodie McAlister, Shilo Klein

Props: Joe Moody, Oli Jager, Fletcher Newell, George Bower, Tamaiti Williams, Finlay Brewis

Locks: Scott Barrett, Quentin Strange, Mitchell Dunshea, Sam Whitelock, Zach Gallagher

Loose forwards: Tom Christie, Ethan Blackadder, Sione Havili Talitui, Cullen Grace, Pablo Matera, Dominic Gardiner, Corey Kellow

Halfbacks: Mitch Drummond, Bryn Hall, Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi

First fives: Richie Mo’unga, Simon Hickey, Fergus Burke

Midfield: Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Braydon Ennor, Isaiah Punivai, Dallas McLeod

Outside backs: Chay Fihaki, George Bridge, Sevu Reece, Will Jordan, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Kini Naholo

Gains: Matera (Argentina); Tahuriorangi (Chiefs); Naholo (Chiefs); Hickey (Hurricanes); Gardiner (Canterbury); Brewis (Canterbury); Gallagher (Canterbury); Klein (Canterbury); Kellow (Canterbury)
On the move: Isileli Tuungafasi (Moana Pasifika); Andrew Makalio (Highlanders); Michael Alaalatoa (Ireland); Whetukamokamo Douglas (Japan); Tom Sanders (Japan); Ereatara Enari (Moana Pasifika); Brett Cameron (Japan); Manasa Mataele (Force), Luke Romano (Blues); Josh McKay (Scotland)

Highlanders

Hookers: Liam Coltman, Rhys Marshall, Andrew Makalio

Props: Ayden Johnstone, Jeff Thwaites, Ethan de Groot, Jermaine Ainsley, Josh Hohneck, Daniel Lienert-Brown, Saula Ma’u

Locks: Maanaki Selby-Rickit, Josh Dickson, Bryn Evans, Max Hicks, Sam Caird

Loose forwards: James Lentjes, Billy Harmon, Hugh Renton, Shannon Frizell, Marino Mikaele-Tu'u, Gareth Evans, Sean Withy

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, Folau Fakatava, Kayne Hammington

First fives: Marty Banks, Mitchell Hunt

Midfield: Fetuli Paea, Patelesio Tomkinson, Solomon Alaimalo, Thomas Umaga-Jensen, Ngatungane Punivai, Scott Gregory

Outside backs: Connor Garden-Bachop, Mosese Dawai, Vilimoni Koroi, Sam Gilbert, Josh Timu

Unavailable due to injury: Jona Nareki, Pari Pari Parkinson

Gains: Gareth Evans (Hurricanes); Makalio (Crusaders); Banks (Southland); Dawai (Waikato); Marshall (Ireland); Timu (Otago); Withy (Otago), Ma’u (Otago), Hicks (Tasman), Caird (Northland).

On the move: Josh Ioane (Chiefs); Ash Dixon (Japan); Siate Tokolahi (France); Kazuki Himeno (Japan); Teariki Ben-Nicholas (France); Michael Collins (Wales); Tim O’Malley (Italy); Jack Regan (Wales); Liam Squire (Retired)

The Moana Pasifika Super Rugby Pacific squad is:

Hookers: Ray Niuia, Sam Moli, Luteru Tolai

Props: Sekope Kepu, Isileli Tuungafasi, Joe Apikatoa, Tau Koloamatangi, Ezekiel Lindenmuth, Chris Apoua

Locks: Don Lolo, Mike McKee, Veikoso Poliniati, Alex McRobbie

Loose Forwards: Henry Stowers, Jack Lam, Sione Tuipulotu, Solomone Funaki, Penitoa Finau, Lotu Inisi, Sam Slade, Alamanda Motuga

Halfbacks: Ereatara Enari, Jonathan Taumateine, Manu Paea

First-fives: Christian Lealifano, Lincoln McClutchie, William Havili

Midfield: Levi Aumua, Danny Toala, Henry Taefu, Fine Inisi

Outside Backs: Lolagi Visinia, Neria Fomai, Tomasi Alosio, Solomone Kata, Timoci Tavatavanawai, Tima Fainga'anuku, Anzelo Tuituvuki

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#2817067 22-Nov-2021 13:56

networkn:

Wow, what a disappointment the result in the weekend was for AB's fans. I had hoped for an AB's backlash but yet again our forwards were for most of the game, barely making the gain line and breakdown and cleanouts were poor. We are just turning over so much ball.

I think Gregor Paul hit the nail on the head when he said it looks like the AB's don't know what game plan to implement. I think there is too much the players have been told to 'focus' on and it's not giving them the clarity they usually play with. We saw it a few times with individual players like Dan Carter. They simplified his game plan entirely down to 3 things and it turned him around really well. I am not sure how you do that with an entire team though.

We do look tired and despite some ranting online about how much they are paid and the fact they are professionals, this has been a pretty arduous year under fairly straining conditions. Sports people are human and get tired and mentally tapped out regardless of how much they are paid.

We certainly did look very 'tired' during some parts of that game. The twenty minutes we headed into recover the score line, our forwards really went to town and we were ferocious and the pick and go was really putting the French under great pressure, and we scored well in those periods. Reikos try was an absolute screamer. Totally about speed. Samisoni Taukei'aho was totally physical when he came on. Mo'unga looks lost. I don't really understand it. He has to learn how to change a game when we are going backward. He does it for the Crusaders to great effect. He hasn't really played his natural game at all this year. It's like he has been told to tone it down and he certainly doesn't look like he is having much fun.

The French were magnificent, they deserved the win, no question. It was like watching the All Blacks when they played the way they did a few years ago.

It's not our best season, but we broke both good and bad records. Compared to most the other tier 1 teams we still did better, including the world champions. It's not all bad news, but I am more worried about the coaches than I have been all along. Foster going on about the backs being the problem, when even the forwards and the forwards coach was saying it was the forwards who needed to step up, is concerning (The backs are an issue too). I am unsure if we don't have the personnel in the forwards to dominate any more, or we are just tired.

I'll make it simple, Foster has sucked at every level of coaching, he has never won anything. He should never have been in the job in the first place, it's time to cut our losses.

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