Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2817069 22-Nov-2021 13:59

Kopkiwi:

I'll make it simple, Foster has sucked at every level of coaching, he has never won anything. He should never have been in the job in the first place, it's time to cut our losses.

Do you think he sucked at being an assistant coach for the AB's for 8 years? Really? Steve Hansen rated him pretty highly. Otherwise, how did he get appointed in the first place and stay for 8 years? The players rate him pretty well as well.

networkn

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#2817086 22-Nov-2021 14:27

Everyone is quick to blame Foster for these losses, but I don't see much criticism of the players themselves. To some degree, you can only work with what you have. You can set a game plan and you can practice and train for it. You can select for it, whilst balancing building depth and experience. Come the game whistle, your control as a coach pretty much ends. We have a lot of much less experienced players in this team etc. These losses are not single dimensional and I totally agree that Foster bears the blame for some of it, but Kiwi fans need to reconcile we have of recent times been blessed with a unicorn team where to a man, we had either the top player, or one of the top 2-3 in the world in every position. We are no longer in that situation and the top 6 teams in the world could pretty beat each other on any given day.

I have seen a lot of criticism online about the chopping and changing of the team, but if just play the same 23 players barring injury each week, then what happens when Super Rugby rolls around and a half dozen of them are wiped out with injury? What happens when you ask them to play 12 rounds of Super Rugby and then 13 test matches? You end up with players who have nothing in the tank.

The world champions played 13 tests and lost 5 and won 8. We played 15 and lost 3, one by only a single point.

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#2817167 22-Nov-2021 15:23

I don't even understand why there should be anyone to be blamed for friendly matches? it does not prove anything, yes these games are important, so is the "fresh blood" for ABs at test level. These games are the perfect time to improvise and test players ability.

bring on next year and 2023!

helping others at evgenyk.nz

MikeAqua

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#2817564 23-Nov-2021 11:33

Foster is doing a John Hart and hanging on to players too long. Players that aren't fronting up are retaining their jerseys based on track record not current form.

Some of the players who didn't front up against Ireland didn't front up in the last RWC either but are still in the starting 15. We couldn't even win our own lineouts for goodness sake. Personally I think a refresh out of the starting tight five is needed.

The team is being poorly coached: Perenara was playing badly at half-back (e.g. inaccurate passes), yet he played the entire game while we had talented young player warming a bench. We go wide too soon and throw far too many miracle balls. We rely on flair rather than doing the basics right - like staying onside or winning our lineouts. We kick away position without gaining tactical advantage.

Razor, Razor, Razor ...

Mike

networkn

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#2817699 23-Nov-2021 13:11

No doubt we have a lot of work to do. Fans in NZ have been exceptionally fortunate to have a long long period of time where we have players the best in their position and we have been almost totally dominant. That is pretty unusual. Most teams lose a few times a year and it's disappointing to fans but pretty much expected/accepted. I think Fans need to reset expectations somewhat. The problem was that Foster wasn't the 'peoples' choice and so everything that goes wrong, irrationally gets blamed 100% on him as if magically Robertson, or anyone else for that matter could somehow blood new talent, have a far less experienced side, have a massively long season, and face quality opposition and still put 50 points on every team every week with next to no mistakes.

@mikeaqua I'd be interested to know who you think should be dropped from the AB's as no longer fit for purpose?

I did find it a bit ironic that Rennie at the start of the year threw shade at SA for winning using the oldest most experienced players bought it from all over the world for the WC, played a youthful side who got smashed week after week, but basically has brought in loads of experience, from overseas to try and shore up the losses. If we dropped a fair number of our experienced players who are 'past it' would you accept an increase in the number of losses next year? It was pretty evident when we played Wales with a B side, what the lack of experience did to us.

Grunta47

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#2817776 23-Nov-2021 13:53

I think the biggest issue with the two losses were not so much that we lost, but in the way we lost.

We knew Ireland and France would be direct with their forwards and play a rush defence. That is the game plan England beat us with in 2019 and South Africa have used against us for the last couple of years. We still haven't found anything to counter it and are relying on individual brilliance instead of structured play.

Yep the team has been on a long trip away and that would have been some of the reason for the loss to Ireland, however that should have been the wake up call for France.....and it wasn't, as the same game plan/mistakes were still there.

Changes? Im not 100% sure if Foster should go but his selections are a mystery.

Front row - Taukei'aho has been the form hooker of the tour. Why not a start against Ireland and France? Yes, Coles and Taylor are great players, but we need physicality. Moody doesn't do enough around the field for me and perhaps we need to take a leaf out of England's book and not worry about being dominant in set piece and prioritise mobility.

Locks - I don't think there is anyone better out there, so no changes. There is still a huge gap between starting and next.

Loosies - Why put Cane back in after a game and half....stupid (and reminds me of the 2007 WC QF decision to play Robinson at lock - first game is 6-7 months??). Papalii played quite well against Ireland so why panic? Regardless, Ardie is the form loosie so he should have been openside. The remaining loose trio could be a pick between 3.

Halfback - TJ's days must be numbered

Backs - with the number of injuries its hard to say who should be where. We do need to start settling on a mid field combination though.

An interesting few weeks to be had for us rugby followers.

networkn

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#2818326 24-Nov-2021 10:19

@grunta if we had played the team as you have outlined and we had lost, would you have been happier? I have spent a lot of time talking about the AB's performance, but both Ireland and France were absolutely brilliant. I know it's generally considered unacceptable for the AB's to lose matches in NZ, I just think we need to be better as fans and accept it's OK for us to beaten by a better team on a day.

I made comments before the French about whether we let us our less experienced team face France and accept the results gracefully and put a loss down to development.

Not sure I agree that Samisoni was the form hooker. He was very impressive in his first season from the bench against tiring defenses, given relatively limited opportunities. I am unsure the total number of minutes he played, but from my memory it was pretty low compared to the other hookers. His throwing especially was pretty scratchy. I hope he can keep his momentum, he looks very impressive.

TJP as a half back is awful in his core roles, and the only reason not to cut him entirely, is how impressive he is in defense and he is probably a little better/stronger around the fringes in attack. I'll be surprised if he makes the AB's next year assuming no injuries to Christie and Weber.

Fans should recall the shellacking we gave SA on the Auckland North Shore 60-0. Who won the RWC?

I am not convinced a change in coach is needed. I guess it will somewhat be dependant on what the teams goals for the year were and how far through those they got. If the focus was building depth, you'd have to say they did well there. If it was to develop attack and deal with linespeed, whatever they are doing isn't working and perhaps some external assistance might be good.

On an unrelated note, Rugby has been a God send for me this year. I am really going to miss it a lot. It's been somewhat of an anchor for me, something to look forward to. I may need to watch Northern Rugby for a few weeks!

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MikeAqua

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#2818355 24-Nov-2021 11:34

networkn:

@mikeaqua I'd be interested to know who you think should be dropped from the AB's as no longer fit for purpose?

I'd start with Retallick and Whitelock, then have look at the front row. IMO the tight five were mostly MIA against Ireland.

We have to at least hold our own in the set pieces and breakdowns.

Mike

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#2818366 24-Nov-2021 11:56

MikeAqua:

I'd start with Retallick and Whitelock, then have look at the front row. IMO the tight five were mostly MIA against Ireland.

We have to at least hold our own in the set pieces and breakdowns.

That's a huge call. Dropping 132 + 92 Caps of experience (including an experienced Captain) seems a brave move, given most pundits would say there is a gulf between them and the next 2 locks in the pecking order.

Are you talking from the team or for the game?

Traditionally heavily experienced teams win RWC's. There is a good reason for that.

Frans + Morne Steyn, neither of who are very young or fast or whatnot were responsible for winning the Lions tour for SA recently, and the game against the AB's.

Our young and inexperienced team played Italy, and only pulled away when the heavy guns were pulled out. What would have happened if we played that same team against Ireland or France?

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#2818379 24-Nov-2021 12:12

Thomas Lavinini is a total and utter grub. It's a total indictment of Argentina Rugby he is allowed to represent them in the top two teams.

He has 3 International Reds (More than any other player) and 1 at a lower level. He has accumulated 16 yellow cards in his career.

It's quite clear the punishment is not a deterrent he needs to be banned from Rugby.

Grunta47

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#2818380 24-Nov-2021 12:13

@networkn - probably not happier, as its always a case of would've......could've........should've. There are always things we see in a game we disagree with, but there's really no way to know if those changes would have made a difference. We like to think so, but its all speculation.

A case in point is George Bridge - had a horrible game in the loss against the Boks, most supporters were surprised he was picked for France, but he went okay (not great)

And yes, form going into the World Cup means nothing. In some regards we suffer from playing too well beforehand and then turn up a bit too overconfident.

Im still 50/50 on a change of coach. I think NZR have backed themselves into a corner on this one and better rugby minds than mine will make that decision.

As to the rugby season, a little bit rugby'd out this year, but that's to do with the team I coach.....probably the most disappointing /frustrating season ever, which has confirmed my earlier decision to make it the last season. Will now become an annoying supporter on the sideline :-)

networkn

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#2818385 24-Nov-2021 12:20

I actually don't think George Bridge played that badly this year. He didn't score many tries, but was instrumental in earlier plays which lead to tries. I thought he was actually pretty good against France. I am glad they have persisted with him. Mo'unga actually didn't play too badly either upon a second watch. He didn't change the game or change the line, but he was pretty decent on defense and excellent in the air. One of the things that has been a serious issue this year, is turn over ball. We aren't following up on the line breaks and players who make breaks get isolated and turned over.

I think one of the things that has been true in recent years is players who are wizards at super rugby are given different roles in the national team. Point in case was SBW, who toward the end of his career was less magical to watch, but his defense was a total game-changer. It was something he was asked to focus on by Hansen.

networkn

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#2818504 24-Nov-2021 15:20

Grunta47:

As to the rugby season, a little bit rugby'd out this year, but that's to do with the team I coach.....probably the most disappointing /frustrating season ever, which has confirmed my earlier decision to make it the last season. Will now become an annoying supporter on the sideline :-)

For what it's worth, I admire anyone who will coach others in sport. It's a tough and thankless job. Usually, no credit for the good things, and total abuse if things don't go your teams way, endless parents who their kids are the next Dan Carter, Richie McCaw etc.

About the only job that is worse on the Rugby field is the referee who can never do anything right!

So thank you for your contribution and time and effort.

networkn

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#2821024 29-Nov-2021 12:53

@handle9 online over the weekend I saw a comment from someone who said that NZ use their backs earlier than other teams because we no longer have personnel capable of proper forwards physicality the likes of SA and perhaps some of the other European teams?

I have seen us put in decent forwards performances though they are far from consistent. I'd put our losses at the end of the year down to lack of forwards platform, and poor execution by the backs (not taking into account two very good teams who performed well against us).

I am just not 100% sure how much of that was fatigue physical and mental, vs just not having the physicality regardless? Esp against the French, our kick chase and line speed was pretty average compared to earlier in the year, they looked pretty knackered.

Handle9

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#2821178 29-Nov-2021 17:43

networkn:

@handle9 online over the weekend I saw a comment from someone who said that NZ use their backs earlier than other teams because we no longer have personnel capable of proper forwards physicality the likes of SA and perhaps some of the other European teams?

I have seen us put in decent forwards performances though they are far from consistent. I'd put our losses at the end of the year down to lack of forwards platform, and poor execution by the backs (not taking into account two very good teams who performed well against us).

I am just not 100% sure how much of that was fatigue physical and mental, vs just not having the physicality regardless? Esp against the French, our kick chase and line speed was pretty average compared to earlier in the year, they looked pretty knackered.

Our game plan is extremely simplistic and hasn't evolved. Most of it relies on the players making a half break or offload which isn't sustainable against good defences.

Basically we haven't evolved from introducing pods and other teams have, they are better coached and better prepared than the All Blacks. The game has evolved since 2016 and we have not.

I always look at kickoffs as one of the key indicators of how well coached a team is. If that is organised then there's a good chance the rest of the game plan will be as well. Our kickoffs are not that effective anymore. I think a great indicator of that was late in the French game Jordie Barrett was sent after the kickoff, which is a good move. He's really effective on kickoffs. The problem was there was no coverage at full back. A well coached side knows who should be there and they are moving as soon as the ball was kicked off. We were scrambling. It's par for the course for the last 5 years against well organised strong sides.

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