Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2936285 30-Jun-2022 06:23

artbloke:

Going by AB history the ABs don't tend to get beaten by big scores... but we certainly got well & truly hammered in the Forwards by both those teams I mentioned... as we all know lose the battle in the forwards & you're on the back foot for most of the match.

From what I heard through the media Foster was told to bring in extra help by the NZRU.

But we weren't outclassed, that's the thing.

In fact the answer is really simple for not being outplayed by the forwards: just don't let the other team have the ball. This is how Ireland beat us the first time. Hard to play an expansive running game to your advantage without the pill.

Likewise the forwards - it just means playing within the margins. You can't have one guardie at ruck time, because they'll get blown over, so commit three, etc. Slows down your game, but if they can't get near the ball, they can't do anything with it.

Yet I feel we're going to persist with short-distance box-kicks inside our own 22 instead of just holding onto it and grinding out metres where we can.

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#2936314 30-Jun-2022 08:53

GV27:

But we weren't outclassed, that's the thing.

In fact the answer is really simple for not being outplayed by the forwards: just don't let the other team have the ball. This is how Ireland beat us the first time. Hard to play an expansive running game to your advantage without the pill.

Likewise the forwards - it just means playing within the margins. You can't have one guardie at ruck time, because they'll get blown over, so commit three, etc. Slows down your game, but if they can't get near the ball, they can't do anything with it.

Yet I feel we're going to persist with short-distance box-kicks inside our own 22 instead of just holding onto it and grinding out metres where we can.

Agree with your points.

We will never know, but if the AB's hadn't been so totally mentally and physically spent, what would have happened in those last two games. No question the Irish and French deserved their wins, France, in particular, played some lovely Rugby, but it isn't often you see AB's staggering around as if drunk.

I'm looking forward to Saturday night. Slightly nervous if I am honest, I would have been a lot more comfortable without Covid playing it's role right now.

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#2936315 30-Jun-2022 08:54

Last night, there were a number of smart tactical kicks by the MAB.

I have to say, despite the scoreline, with a few things going better for the Irish, I think things could have been quite different. I would imagine that was one of their most error-prone performances in a long time, I'll be pretty surprised if we get that on Saturday.

The Irish weren't able to finish a number of their moves due to execution, but they were finding gaping holes on defence in the second half.

Not saying the MAB didn't deserve to win, just that fans should temper their expectations :)

itxtme

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#2936333 30-Jun-2022 09:53

3 days before an All Black test match, with 5 uncapped players. I think its safe to assume most of these players will not be in the match on Saturday

artbloke

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#2936341 30-Jun-2022 10:04

networkn:

GV27:

But we weren't outclassed, that's the thing.

In fact the answer is really simple for not being outplayed by the forwards: just don't let the other team have the ball. This is how Ireland beat us the first time. Hard to play an expansive running game to your advantage without the pill.

Likewise the forwards - it just means playing within the margins. You can't have one guardie at ruck time, because they'll get blown over, so commit three, etc. Slows down your game, but if they can't get near the ball, they can't do anything with it.

Yet I feel we're going to persist with short-distance box-kicks inside our own 22 instead of just holding onto it and grinding out metres where we can.

Agree with your points.

We will never know, but if the AB's hadn't been so totally mentally and physically spent, what would have happened in those last two games. No question the Irish and French deserved their wins, France, in particular, played some lovely Rugby, but it isn't often you see AB's staggering around as if drunk.

I'm looking forward to Saturday night. Slightly nervous if I am honest, I would have been a lot more comfortable without Covid playing it's role right now.

We weren't outclassed though, the breakdown is by far the most contested area of the game, our ball carriers got isolated far too much, so it was too easy for them to turn our ball over or win a penalty... we needed to get a few more numbers to the ball carrier & clean aggressively smashing their players out the way so they couldn't slow our possession down etc.

I do agree we have to take the ball through a lot more phases, making them tackle heaps more, which also is going to frustrate them, so eventually they're going to give away penalties, allowing us to kick for field position & get the lineout throw too.

Most box kicks are aimless, but especially thoughtless when executed from inside your own 22 & land in the field of play, but box kicks from inside your 22 by halfbacks can be very effective if they kick the ball out about the halfway mark... then the opposition have no chance of attacking from broken play, you get out of your danger zone & you can set your defence from a lineout.

artbloke

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#2936347 30-Jun-2022 10:18

Outstanding ball handling skill by the MABs in the 1st half, especially in wet conditions... unfortunately wasn't great in the 2nd half by either side.

Was really impressed by the MABs tight-five, they dominated the set pieces, thought we were also great in the breakdown area.

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#2936348 30-Jun-2022 10:20

artbloke:

Going by AB history the ABs don't tend to get beaten by big scores... but we certainly got well & truly hammered in the Forwards by both those teams I mentioned... as we all know lose the battle in the forwards & you're on the back foot for most of the match.

From what I heard through the media Foster was told to bring in extra help by the NZRU.

I am wondering what you think the coach is supposed to do if we are getting beaten in the contact areas? He can say (scream, yell, insist on, beg, cajole, bribe) hey, I want you to win the contact areas, I want to see you dominate tackles, I want you to be more mobile, but if the players can't or won't, then he either needs to develop a plan for how they play when going backward, which I think he had started to do, but if the backs aren't executing, then you are in the poo.

If his forwards can't consistently 'go forward' (Ultimately if the other teams forwards are superior), then he has limited choices, try other players and hope they are going to do better, whilst building experience/combinations, but then fans complain of too much movement in the team. Fans want innovation, but can't tolerate a loss.

If they develop a new plan, then it takes time for the plan to become settled, the team needs to understand embrace it, and practice it, during those times, we may lose games, or play badly and win. The coaches aren't announcing that to the public either.

The Warriors and Blues have for the longest time, only made coaches accountable for poor performances, and that has resulted in 15+ years of misery. You can only play the players you can choose from. I think it's high time Rugby fans in NZ understand the reality we may actually not have the current talent to dominate every other team in the world.

If it makes you happy to put the entire blame on the current coaches, that's fine. I think it's more than a little narrow viewed to be honest.

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#2936349 30-Jun-2022 10:23

artbloke:

Was really impressed by the MABs tight-five, they dominated the set pieces, thought we were also great in the breakdown area.

It was a bit of am arm wrestle.

I agree, there were times where we were comfortably winning the contact zones, but also times where we got monstered by the Irish in them as well. The Irish didn't execute their finishes very well.

I did think though that the MAB would be get monstered by the Irish forwards, which they certainly didn't, so kudos to them.

artbloke

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#2936356 30-Jun-2022 10:43

networkn:

artbloke:

Going by AB history the ABs don't tend to get beaten by big scores... but we certainly got well & truly hammered in the Forwards by both those teams I mentioned... as we all know lose the battle in the forwards & you're on the back foot for most of the match.

From what I heard through the media Foster was told to bring in extra help by the NZRU.

I am wondering what you think the coach is supposed to do if we are getting beaten in the contact areas? He can say (scream, yell, insist on, beg, cajole, bribe) hey, I want you to win the contact areas, I want to see you dominate tackles, I want you to be more mobile, but if the players can't or won't, then he either needs to develop a plan for how they play when going backward, which I think he had started to do, but if the backs aren't executing, then you are in the poo.

If his forwards can't consistently 'go forward' (Ultimately if the other teams forwards are superior), then he has limited choices, try other players and hope they are going to do better, whilst building experience/combinations, but then fans complain of too much movement in the team. Fans want innovation, but can't tolerate a loss.

If they develop a new plan, then it takes time for the plan to become settled, the team needs to understand embrace it, and practice it, during those times, we may lose games, or play badly and win. The coaches aren't announcing that to the public either.

The Warriors and Blues have for the longest time, only made coaches accountable for poor performances, and that has resulted in 15+ years of misery. You can only play the players you can choose from. I think it's high time Rugby fans in NZ understand the reality we may actually not have the current talent to dominate every other team in the world.

If it makes you happy to put the entire blame on the current coaches, that's fine. I think it's more than a little narrow viewed to be honest.

Have never said I've put all the blame on the coach, that's ridiculous... what I've said is Foster isn't up to the job, that magnified by him needing help outside his coaching staff when he's only had his contract for just over a year.

As for the players of course they have to take some of the blame too, it's never only one persons fault when a team isn't performing well, it's on the leadership group out on the field & each individual as well to do something about, but that hasn't really happened either.

artbloke

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#2936389 30-Jun-2022 10:58

networkn:

artbloke:

Was really impressed by the MABs tight-five, they dominated the set pieces, thought we were also great in the breakdown area.

It was a bit of am arm wrestle.

I agree, there were times where we were comfortably winning the contact zones, but also times where we got monstered by the Irish in them as well. The Irish didn't execute their finishes very well.

I did think though that the MAB would be get monstered by the Irish forwards, which they certainly didn't, so kudos to them.

What ? the MABs won the contact zones most of the time - even the Irish coach said that after the game... we dominated most of the 1st half, got a big lead, then looked to take the foot off the throat after.

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#2936436 30-Jun-2022 12:32

artbloke:

Have never said I've put all the blame on the coach, that's ridiculous... what I've said is Foster isn't up to the job, that magnified by him needing help outside his coaching staff when he's only had his contract for just over a year.

As for the players of course they have to take some of the blame too, it's never only one persons fault when a team isn't performing well, it's on the leadership group out on the field & each individual as well to do something about, but that hasn't really happened either.

You might not be saying it outright, but the majority of your posts talk about Fosters failures. I've not seen you talk about any other reason for the issues we are having (unless asked).

Our forwards don't consistently perform. I believe last year was one out of the bag (and we still got some great results as posted already) , but we have been going backwards for quite a long time, even under Hansen.

I don't think our current crop of forwards are up to the standard of some other international sides, and so we either may have to accept that we aren't going to be able to compete with them and come up with another plan (Which I agree to date Foster hasn't shown yet or may not be able to), or we accept we aren't going to win as many matches as we have, by the margins we are used to, and work towards building the next generation of forwards and hope they can do the job.

The problem is, the Kiwi public has zero-tolerance to losses by the AB's.

The coach has an impossible job, he has to win every game comfortably, whilst building depth and combinations, and keeping the same team every week so people don't moan about rotation policies. He has to do all of this whilst managing injuries and changes in players form and is never allowed to get it wrong.

You might consider extra coaching resources being added to the AB's a weakness, I consider it a sign of strength.

I get the strong feeling that no matter what results Foster can muster, he will always be, for some people, the wrong guy for the job (if he wins the RWC and I'd consider that quite an achievement with the state of the AB's now) then people will complain we didn't win it better :)

I think people underestimate how difficult his job is compared to the last two head coaches. They had unicorn teams, admittedly, off the back of unpopular rotation policies, but none the less, there were many once in a life time players and combinations in those times.

Foster is having to manage players in a pandemic, with less talented players overall (not to say we don't have any world-class talent), during a time where the rest of the worlds teams, have caught up with our tactics, and are fitter and more competitive.

I think some perspective from fans is called for.

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#2936445 30-Jun-2022 12:47

So the team named to play Ireland:

George Bower (11)
Codie Taylor (66)
Ofa Tu'ungafasi (44)
Brodie Retallick (92)
Samuel Whitelock (132)
Scott Barrett (48)
Sam Cane (77) Captain
Ardie Savea (59)
Aaron Smith (102)
Beauden Barrett (101)
Leicester Fainga'anuku* (0)
Quinn Tupaea (7)
Rieko Ioane (47)
Sevu Reece (17)
Jordie Barrett (36)

Reserves: Samisoni Taukei'aho (9), Karl Tu'inukuafe (25), Angus Ta'avao (20), Pita Gus Sowakula (0)*, Dalton Papalii (12), Finlay Christie (5), Richie Mo'unga (32), Braydon Ennor (4).

Given the players they have available, looks like the strongest side we could play, and still looks plenty good enough to beat Ireland if we play well.

Feek has gone down with Covid, Cron in to replace him (which is quite a handy replacement). Laulala out with a sore neck.

Hopefully, Aaron Smith is 100%, though he must be OK to name as starter. Christine is going to have a big job ahead of him if Smith goes down early.

I did see a comment around the argument to start Mo'unga as opposed to Beauden, that being that Mo'unga only plays one position and BB plays at least 2 (3 if you were prepared to chance him on the wing).

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#2936469 30-Jun-2022 13:30

Possibly the weakest All Blacks team named to play a Tier 1 nation in many many years.

Only 3 players playing out of position, would not be surprised to see the AB's drop 1 or 2 in this 3 test series.

Looks like it will be wet too, so the forward battle and set piece will be very important

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#2936492 30-Jun-2022 14:05

JPNZ:

Possibly the weakest All Blacks team named to play a Tier 1 nation in many many years.

Only 3 players playing out of position, would not be surprised to see the AB's drop 1 or 2 in this 3 test series.

Looks like it will be wet too, so the forward battle and set piece will be very important

Wondering what your 23 looks like?

I see a bit of angst online toward Barrett at 6...

Loose Forwards
Pita Gus Sowakula* (Chiefs, Taranaki)
Sam Cane – Captain (Chiefs, Bay of Plenty)
Dalton Papalii (Blues, Counties Manukau)
Ardie Savea (Hurricanes, Wellington)
Akira Ioane (Blues, Auckland)
Hoskins Sotutu (Blues, Counties Manukau)

Ioane is injured, he is the only 'specialist' 6 there, who else would we have played? Papilli is still not 100% so is on the bench...

artbloke

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#2937070 1-Jul-2022 12:13

networkn:

artbloke:

Have never said I've put all the blame on the coach, that's ridiculous... what I've said is Foster isn't up to the job, that magnified by him needing help outside his coaching staff when he's only had his contract for just over a year.

As for the players of course they have to take some of the blame too, it's never only one persons fault when a team isn't performing well, it's on the leadership group out on the field & each individual as well to do something about, but that hasn't really happened either.

You might not be saying it outright, but the majority of your posts talk about Fosters failures. I've not seen you talk about any other reason for the issues we are having (unless asked).

Our forwards don't consistently perform. I believe last year was one out of the bag (and we still got some great results as posted already) , but we have been going backwards for quite a long time, even under Hansen.

I don't think our current crop of forwards are up to the standard of some other international sides, and so we either may have to accept that we aren't going to be able to compete with them and come up with another plan (Which I agree to date Foster hasn't shown yet or may not be able to), or we accept we aren't going to win as many matches as we have, by the margins we are used to, and work towards building the next generation of forwards and hope they can do the job.

The problem is, the Kiwi public has zero-tolerance to losses by the AB's.

The coach has an impossible job, he has to win every game comfortably, whilst building depth and combinations, and keeping the same team every week so people don't moan about rotation policies. He has to do all of this whilst managing injuries and changes in players form and is never allowed to get it wrong.

You might consider extra coaching resources being added to the AB's a weakness, I consider it a sign of strength.

I get the strong feeling that no matter what results Foster can muster, he will always be, for some people, the wrong guy for the job (if he wins the RWC and I'd consider that quite an achievement with the state of the AB's now) then people will complain we didn't win it better :)

I think people underestimate how difficult his job is compared to the last two head coaches. They had unicorn teams, admittedly, off the back of unpopular rotation policies, but none the less, there were many once in a life time players and combinations in those times.

Foster is having to manage players in a pandemic, with less talented players overall (not to say we don't have any world-class talent), during a time where the rest of the worlds teams, have caught up with our tactics, and are fitter and more competitive.

I think some perspective from fans is called for.

My point was we had better options for head coach... of course I've mentioned the other issues, the main one is how poor we are at the breakdown area & have given reasons why, as said it's probably the most crucial area because it's the most contested.

Yeah, we had problems going back in the forwards in the last year or two when Hansen was coach - we don't take the ball up through enough phases, then the 9 fires the ball out to the backs, so the defence is standing on top of them... the forwards need to take the ball through a lot more phases to suck in their forwards making it harder for them to fan across the field, then when we tire them out a bit we will get more space to run in giving our back good front foot ball.

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