Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2938170 4-Jul-2022 13:36

networkn:

artbloke:

I find that both Goodhue & ALB lack a bit on attack.

Havill & Tuivasa-Sheck are not that big for midfielders, have very similar skill sets, but Havili has the better all-round game over him because he has far better kicking skills... they could've had Sullivan in the squad in place of Tuivasa-Sheck.

In the next test we all know they going to start Reiko Ioane, so I'd prefer Havili to partner him, which would give our midfield more variation on attack.

Personally, I'd like to see Havilli and Goodhue play at least once or twice together and see how they go. Goodhue has looked really good since getting back and if he got back to the form he was in pre-injury, he is the closest thing we have had to a Conrad Smith with a great understanding of Rugby in general and an excellent voice in organizing defensive lines.

Reiko's big plus is his speed. If we can get him into space, there isn't anyone faster, it just doesn't happen often enough to balance out what I consider to be his liabilities in distribution and decision making (which admittedly has improved this year). He made those two try saving tackles this match, which were really fantastic, and perhaps if his defense can stand up consistently, then he is the answer there.

Agree on Havillis size, but then we played MacKenzie at Fullback for 2 years :)

Totally agree what you're saying about R.Ioane... his pace was always going to be a big factor in midfield as he use to be one of the fastest wingers in the world, he still tends to get caught out of position too much in defence as a mid-fielder, just doesn't look comfortable there.

Reckon it's ok to have a smaller bloke in the mid-field, but needs to be balanced out by having that power player to partner him - the Smith/Nonu combo was probably the best in the history of the game, we had Conrad Smith's excellent organizing skills & anticipation to reads situations, he tended to get a lot of loose ball for us as well... then we had the brutal power of Nonu & his great all-round skill sets.

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networkn

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#2938185 4-Jul-2022 14:02

artbloke:

Totally agree what you're saying about R.Ioane... his pace was always going to be a big factor in midfield as he use to be one of the fastest wingers in the world, he still tends to get caught out of position too much in defence as a mid-fielder, just doesn't look comfortable there.

Reckon it's ok to have a smaller bloke in the mid-field, but needs to be balanced out by having that power player to partner him - the Smith/Nonu combo was probably the best in the history of the game, we had Conrad Smith's excellent organizing skills & anticipation to reads situations, he tended to get a lot of loose ball for us as well... then we had the brutal power of Nonu & his great all-round skill sets.

During our dominance we had some of the most unbelievable players to ever play the game, and on top of that, some wildly successful combinations.

We don't have as much of that now. We have some good maybe even great players, but I think it's going to take time for those to gel and I am not sure we will get back to that level of dominance again, at least not for a while.

Fans may need to temper their expectations of our results and learn to accept that sometimes we will lose to better teams or teams who play better on the day, because we aren't as consistent.

Having said that, I believe it would take us a lot for us to fall below 3rd in the world for any length of time.

Earbanean

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#2938203 4-Jul-2022 14:52

I know they're not going to, but I'd still give Jordie a run at 12 when Jordan is back. Also agree that Rieko isn't quiote there as a complete test centre. I'd have Jordie at 12, Goodhue at 13, Rieko on one wing, Leicester or Reece on the other and Jordan at the back. Again, I know they're not going to do that.

One of the journalists did a really wide ranging and detailed interview with Wayne Smith earlier this year and he said he liked Jordie at 12 and thought ALB was one of the best centres going around. He didn't go as far as saying how he would select the team, but I remember inferring that Jordie/ALB was his favoured mid field. That was before this year's Super Rugby and obviously ALB isn't an option now, but Smith is always worth listening to in my opinion.

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#2938255 4-Jul-2022 15:07

Earbanean:

I know they're not going to, but I'd still give Jordie a run at 12 when Jordan is back. Also agree that Rieko isn't quiote there as a complete test centre. I'd have Jordie at 12, Goodhue at 13, Rieko on one wing, Leicester or Reece on the other and Jordan at the back. Again, I know they're not going to do that.

One of the journalists did a really wide ranging and detailed interview with Wayne Smith earlier this year and he said he liked Jordie at 12 and thought ALB was one of the best centres going around. He didn't go as far as saying how he would select the team, but I remember inferring that Jordie/ALB was his favoured mid field. That was before this year's Super Rugby and obviously ALB isn't an option now, but Smith is always worth listening to in my opinion.

I agree, Smith is a fantastic rugby mind, though I am not sure I see Jordie at 12 unless there isn't a better option. I think trying to convert yet another player to centers when we have capable centers already, when his height, size and boot are valuable at the back, seems pointless to me. So long as they don't play him at wing anymore however.

Earbanean

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#2938257 4-Jul-2022 15:20

networkn:

I agree, Smith is a fantastic rugby mind, though I am not sure I see Jordie at 12 unless there isn't a better option. I think trying to convert yet another player to centers when we have capable centers already, when his height, size and boot are valuable at the back, seems pointless to me. So long as they don't play him at wing anymore however.

One of the points Smith made, as have others, is that it wouldn't be converting Jordie as such. He played most of his footy in the mid field, I believe including NZ U20s, Canterbury, and the like. He's actually been 'converted' to play fullback. Smith also said that size and also height is now really important at 12, particularly with the stricter tackling laws. i.e. a strong tall player can go to the line and into the tackle and still free his arms to offload, which gives a point of difference against the rush defence.

I still think the really great All Black teams have had an electric attacking option from 15. Think Christian Cullen, Izzy Dagg, Ben Smith - even going right back to John Gallagher. Or even when Beaudy came off the bench to play 15, with Carter at 10. I reckon Jordan is that option now, but we don't want to lose Jordie's accuracy and range with kicking.

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#2938307 4-Jul-2022 16:38

More and more I grow to like and respect Jeff Wilson for his well-thought-out analysis and thought processes in Rugby.

In the breakdown, he suggested we rest Sam Whitelock this week. Initially, like the other panelists on the breakdown, I was aghast that you would take one of our best players and leave them out of what most Rugby fans believe is a must win series. His reasoning though, is 100% correct. If you want to test your guys, if you want to know if guys can take the pressure, you need to test them under pressure. Removing Sam Whitelock and bringing in a less experienced player, gives the coaches a rare opportunity to do this. After hearing him voice those thoughts, I totally agree.

I am probably not your typical rugby fan right now. I want to win every game, but understand we need to build depth, experience, and combinations, even if the cost is the occasional loss to teams we really want to win against. I'd be brave if I was Foster, and I'd play one of the less experienced locks, next to Retallick and see how they go. If they win, that's great, if they lose, you have the option to bring Whitelock back for the third match, though in all honesty, I'd just play the same player the following week as it's the same or more pressure.

I actively want to see Foster do this now.

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#2938398 5-Jul-2022 09:10

I hope they don't rush players recovering from Covid, back into the team, and let them have the full amount of time they require, to fully recover.

artbloke

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#2938405 5-Jul-2022 09:45

networkn:

artbloke:

Totally agree what you're saying about R.Ioane... his pace was always going to be a big factor in midfield as he use to be one of the fastest wingers in the world, he still tends to get caught out of position too much in defence as a mid-fielder, just doesn't look comfortable there.

Reckon it's ok to have a smaller bloke in the mid-field, but needs to be balanced out by having that power player to partner him - the Smith/Nonu combo was probably the best in the history of the game, we had Conrad Smith's excellent organizing skills & anticipation to reads situations, he tended to get a lot of loose ball for us as well... then we had the brutal power of Nonu & his great all-round skill sets.

During our dominance we had some of the most unbelievable players to ever play the game, and on top of that, some wildly successful combinations.

We don't have as much of that now. We have some good maybe even great players, but I think it's going to take time for those to gel and I am not sure we will get back to that level of dominance again, at least not for a while.

Fans may need to temper their expectations of our results and learn to accept that sometimes we will lose to better teams or teams who play better on the day, because we aren't as consistent.

Having said that, I believe it would take us a lot for us to fall below 3rd in the world for any length of time.

NZ has always had great depth, which is why we're the only team to have the best win/loss record over all the other teams... yeah we had an incredible amount of x-factors players when Hansen was coach, probably won't happen again, but you never know with the depth of talent we have.

One of the best player I've seen would be Richie McCaw & very intelligent too - whenever a new breakdown law was introduced he'd find the best way to adapt to it, McCaw was the first one to lean over a player at the breakdown & splay his legs wide making it a lot more difficult for the other side to clean him out, the bloke had a great engine on him, could run all day... also, always amazed me that he could be out of the game for a couple months, then slot back into the team & hardly miss a heart beat, most players it takes a few games to get up to speed again

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#2938408 5-Jul-2022 09:55

I can't believe how close the world rankings are. Between 2, 3 and 4 there is maybe 1 match difference.

I am struggling to see how SA have stayed number 1 given their last year was pretty average. I guess at the end of the day, despite not deserving to win (something the AB's have been guilty of in the past) they are still winning, and that is the difference.

artbloke

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#2938417 5-Jul-2022 10:32

The world ranking system doesn't make any sense.

artbloke

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#2938420 5-Jul-2022 10:39

Whitelock is near the end of his career so makes good sense to give another lock a crack, but wouldn't leave him out of the squad for a test, have him on the bench... the best way to see if a player can handle those real pressure situations in a test is to basically start them.

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#2938427 5-Jul-2022 10:43

artbloke:

Whitelock is near the end of his career so makes good sense to give another lock a crack, but wouldn't leave him out of the squad for a test, have him on the bench... the best way to see if a player can handle those real pressure situations in a test is to basically start them.

I think you never really figure out if a player can step up unless you remove the safety net. Again, it depends on team priorities. If you need to build depth and experience, at almost any cost, something I think we are heading toward, then a loss isn't the worst thing, in the long term. In that situation, Whitelock would be waterboy.

If you want to win every test in the short term (which has longer-term consequences), you leave him in the team or on the bench, but if he's on the bench, he only goes on, if things are really really bad, or in the event of an injury.

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#2938448 5-Jul-2022 11:18

networkn:

More and more I grow to like and respect Jeff Wilson for his well-thought-out analysis and thought processes in Rugby.

In the breakdown, he suggested we rest Sam Whitelock this week. Initially, like the other panelists on the breakdown, I was aghast that you would take one of our best players and leave them out of what most Rugby fans believe is a must win series. His reasoning though, is 100% correct. If you want to test your guys, if you want to know if guys can take the pressure, you need to test them under pressure. Removing Sam Whitelock and bringing in a less experienced player, gives the coaches a rare opportunity to do this. After hearing him voice those thoughts, I totally agree.

I am probably not your typical rugby fan right now. I want to win every game, but understand we need to build depth, experience, and combinations, even if the cost is the occasional loss to teams we really want to win against. I'd be brave if I was Foster, and I'd play one of the less experienced locks, next to Retallick and see how they go. If they win, that's great, if they lose, you have the option to bring Whitelock back for the third match, though in all honesty, I'd just play the same player the following week as it's the same or more pressure.

I actively want to see Foster do this now.

Looks like you'll get your wish: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300629666/all-blacks-lock-sam-whitelock-out-of-second-test-against-ireland-with-delayed-onset-concussion

artbloke

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#2938450 5-Jul-2022 11:20

networkn:

artbloke:

Whitelock is near the end of his career so makes good sense to give another lock a crack, but wouldn't leave him out of the squad for a test, have him on the bench... the best way to see if a player can handle those real pressure situations in a test is to basically start them.

I think you never really figure out if a player can step up unless you remove the safety net. Again, it depends on team priorities. If you need to build depth and experience, at almost any cost, something I think we are heading toward, then a loss isn't the worst thing, in the long term. In that situation, Whitelock would be waterboy.

If you want to win every test in the short term (which has longer-term consequences), you leave him in the team or on the bench, but if he's on the bench, he only goes on, if things are really really bad, or in the event of an injury.

Yeah, need to really see if a player can handle the pressure situations in their positions at international level - Super Rugby can be a decent gauge for that though... reckon when building depth & experience it has to be with balance, can feed one or two players into a test, whether one is starting & the other on the bench, what we don't want is starting too many newbies in a test, especially against the better teams, we'd also lose cohesion.

I always want us to try & win every test... yeah, I meant Whitelock should only come on if the lock that replaced him is going really poorly, it's up to a new player to make the most of their opportunities, if they perform badly they can only blame themselves.

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#2938453 5-Jul-2022 11:23

trig42:

Looks like you'll get your wish: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300629666/all-blacks-lock-sam-whitelock-out-of-second-test-against-ireland-with-delayed-onset-concussion

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Having him removed isn't the same as removing him. I want the Coaches to make that choice, to take the chances. At the end of the day, the choice has been made for them, and perhaps that will create the same opportunity, but for me it's about mindset.

Being called up due to injury, vs being called up because your coaches want to see if you can make the step up, even when there are others in the team likely able to do the job, is a different type of mental statement/situation for a player.

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