Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2999984 22-Nov-2022 20:49

Gregor Pauls article in the Herald was in much the same vein as my comments above.

The comment below sums up New Zealand Rugbys arrogance thoroughly. They will get second best if the wait too long. While the result of the World Cup is important the best coach before the World Cup will be the best coach after the World Cup, regardless of the tournament result.

The other school of thought is driven by a belief that candidates should be willing to sacrifice prospective jobs and take risks to become the All Blacks coach, and that waiting until after the World Cup to conduct the process, therefore, remains the best strategy.

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#3000152 23-Nov-2022 09:17

Handle9:

Gregor Pauls article in the Herald was in much the same vein as my comments above.

The comment below sums up New Zealand Rugbys arrogance thoroughly. They will get second best if the wait too long. While the result of the World Cup is important the best coach before the World Cup will be the best coach after the World Cup, regardless of the tournament result.

The other school of thought is driven by a belief that candidates should be willing to sacrifice prospective jobs and take risks to become the All Blacks coach, and that waiting until after the World Cup to conduct the process, therefore, remains the best strategy.

Whilst there might be an element of truth to their belief, that the AB's role is coveted, I don't think the pull is as strong as it once was, and even if it was, it's not a fair way to continue to behave to ask people to put their futures at risk.

@handle9 Razer is probably the only candidate who could join Fosters team to spend time with the team prior to the world cup, everyone else is likely going to be busy with their own campaign.

Who would you favour for the position next round?

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#3001063 24-Nov-2022 23:44

networkn:

Whilst there might be an element of truth to their belief, that the AB's role is coveted, I don't think the pull is as strong as it once was, and even if it was, it's not a fair way to continue to behave to ask people to put their futures at risk.

handle9 Razer is probably the only candidate who could join Fosters team to spend time with the team prior to the world cup, everyone else is likely going to be busy with their own campaign.

Who would you favour for the position next round?

Honestly I'm not sure and I really think it'll be important to go outside the NZ group think for new ideas. That's one thing I do like about Robertson is that he's had northern hemisphere coached as assistants. If they could have gotten Shaun Edwards as assistant coach that would have done good things for them. The coaching team is really important and I'm not sure a team purely of Super Rugby coaches is going to get it done. It'll be interesting to see what Jospeh and Brown want to do next.

Our defensive system is antiquated and compromised. That's not all on McLeod as we run a defence predicated on enabling counter attack rather than a more disciplined system like France or Ireland.

It totally fell apart against England when we continued to play 2 at the back and the halfback as a sweeper. Only having 11 in the line killed our ability to slow them down. That's a head coaching philosophy problem more than a specialist problem.

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#3001079 25-Nov-2022 06:57

Handle9:

Our defensive system is antiquated and compromised. That's not all on McLeod as we run a defence predicated on enabling counter attack rather than a more disciplined system like France or Ireland.

I think the modern game has moved to the point where you rarely see phases of defence and more often you get a few recycles and then someone defending infringes. It's really eaten into the international game and it would only take one IRB directive to see players infringing on their own lines punished more than we do now.

At that point, we might actually see how good our defence is. The Crusaders and Blues have been lauded for goal line defence, but the former seems more prone to strategic infringement and the Blues seem to genuinely hold out for a while before committing the dumbest accidental offence you can imagine. There has to be something they can draw on somewhere in NZ rugby.

The real issue IMO is the lack of confidence in our own lineouts. If you can genuinely win your own ball and get it in straight, it brings the touchline in as a defending option, perhaps even against the rolling maul. But that's been an issue for us for a while now, I'm stumped as to how we've normalised basic lineout errors. I'm guessing Retallick/Whitelock have made things look a lot better than they probably are.

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#3001088 25-Nov-2022 07:48

One of the strengths of NZ rugby is that the franchises mostly do things the same way. That's also a weakness where our players aren't used to different ways of thinking.

Gatland talks about it for a couple of minutes in the video below from around 36 minutes.

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#3001089 25-Nov-2022 07:57

GV27:
The real issue IMO is the lack of confidence in our own lineouts. If you can genuinely win your own ball and get it in straight, it brings the touchline in as a defending option, perhaps even against the rolling maul. But that's been an issue for us for a while now, I'm stumped as to how we've normalised basic lineout errors. I'm guessing Retallick/Whitelock have made things look a lot better than they probably are.

For 10 years we had Kieran Read. Anytime the lineout was under pressure he’d go to 2 and out jump whoever was marking him. He was by far the best lineout loose forward in the world for most of his career.

For a fair chunk of that we also had Kaino and McCaw who were also relatively very good for the 4th and 5th options. When you’ve got excellent locks as well you had a lot of options.

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#3001090 25-Nov-2022 07:59

GV27:

At that point, we might actually see how good our defence is. The Crusaders and Blues have been lauded for goal line defence, but the former seems more prone to strategic infringement and the Blues seem to genuinely hold out for a while before committing the dumbest accidental offence you can imagine. There has to be something they can draw on somewhere in NZ rugby.

I'm sorry WHAT!? I literally nearly spat out my coffee! I agree that the Crusaders are often cynical on their own line, I've complained about it a lot (it's worse since Robertson took over), but to suggest the Blues are doing theirs accidentally is patently ludicrous. In 2022 they infringed cynically constantly in defence. It was endemic. The leniency given by referees to the Blues this season beggars belief.

The real issue IMO is the lack of confidence in our own lineouts. If you can genuinely win your own ball and get it in straight, it brings the touchline in as a defending option, perhaps even against the rolling maul. But that's been an issue for us for a while now, I'm stumped as to how we've normalised basic lineout errors. I'm guessing Retallick/Whitelock have made things look a lot better than they probably are.

I agree. It's not only the lineouts we lose, often it's the quality of the lineout wins we get, which then result in messed up attacking phase.

Pleasingly, Ryan has continued his record of neither the Crusaders, nor the AB's conceding a maul try since he took over the forwards.

I remain concerned at the lack of self-belief in AB's in general, and their mental fragility. We lack the hardness that the previous All Blacks teams have. Gilbert Enoka was literally a game-changer for the AB's. It was one of Steve Hansens' finest moments insisting he was part of the coaching team, but wonder if he has lost his edge/drive, as recently his influence seems to be less.

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#3001097 25-Nov-2022 08:07

Enoka Gilbert. Snicker.

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#3001100 25-Nov-2022 08:09

Handle9: Enoka Gilbert. Snicker.

Doh.

Sorry Gilbert :) Fixed

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#3002196 27-Nov-2022 15:53

Doddie Weir passed away over night. What an awful disease but what he did with his foundation was really wonderful.

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#3002197 27-Nov-2022 15:54

If anyone was considering watching England South Africa do yourself a favour and watch paint dry instead. I watched the first half and it was dire so I went to bed.

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#3002251 27-Nov-2022 20:04

I am not sure I've ever seen England put together 2 such appalling games of Rugby back to back ever. I keep thinking they are trying something new but I can't figure out what it is. I can't really see any 'new' structures, but I am not the best at identifying them anyway.

The 10 minutes of 'decent' Rugby they played in the last 160 were at least partially due to the ABs being down a player, and losing their composure (though England do deserve reasonable credit for not giving up and being able to make the most of the capitulation of the AB's.).

Johnny Hill is a total dick head. Why anyone would continue to select him is beyond me, his lack of discipline is a liability. Jack van Poortvliet did a reasonable job of rallying after last weeks pretty grim start; it was a tough baptism of fire. England's discipline is a mess right now.

For all the talk of how much better the Northern Hemisphere teams are than the Southern, potentially with the exception of Ireland or France, I am not sure I think that's true.

Australia narrowly avoided their worst season since 1958, I don't really think they are better off for Rennies involvement. There has been areas of definite improvement, but in many ways I think they have gone backward. I wouldn't expect them to do better at a world cup this round than they did under Cheika.

I think the outcome of the review into how badly the team has been injured will be fairly damning. I expect they won't point the finger directly at him, but if doesn't have anything to do with it, I'd question his capabilities (since surely he should have been asking hard questions and demanding changes himself) after they ended up with an entire Rugby team and a half injured in a season. Eddie Jones faced similar pressure with England a few years ago.

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#3002252 27-Nov-2022 20:05

Handle9: If anyone was considering watching England South Africa do yourself a favour and watch paint dry instead. I watched the first half and it was dire so I went to bed.

I thought SA were reasonably entertaining (though I'd question if a couple of those tries would have been scored against almost any other team), England had moments of good stuff, but it really was just a few minutes the whole game. I am surprised SA didn't win by far more, probably not helped by another red card. I thought the second half was really dull.

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#3002260 27-Nov-2022 20:29

Handle9: Doddie Weir passed away over night. What an awful disease but what he did with his foundation was really wonderful.

I wasn't particularly aware of him prior to the Scotland test, though I recall him walking onto the pitch on a previous occasion. A sad day for the Rugby Community.

MND is a devasting disease, I hope as a result of his advocation of more research into it, more resources are put into combating it.

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#3002934 29-Nov-2022 08:20

networkn:For all the talk of how much better the Northern Hemisphere teams are than the Southern, potentially with the exception of Ireland or France, I am not sure I think that's true.

France last lost in July 2021. They gave away 1 card in 2022 and average below 10 penalties a game.

The scary thing is they are just getting started. They have the more than double the number of players that New Zealand does, 30 professional teams each with academies, a massive broadcasting deal and are now much more professionally run. They still have long way to go with more professional strength and conditioning and player management. If they get that right they will be even harder to beat consistently.

Ireland have lost 3 games in 2 years, two of which were to France. They certainly don’t have the depth of France and are still too reliant on Sexton but they are a superb side.

They are number 1 and 2 in the world by a fair distance. No one else has been remotely consistent over the same period.

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