Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#3094544 24-Jun-2023 20:52

Dingbatt:
My biggest hope is that the game isn’t decided by yellow/red cards or anything contentious, because neither team deserves that.

And so it came to pass.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3094657 25-Jun-2023 11:47

Commiserations to the Chiefs fans. Discipline was the difference.

I was pretty surprised because since MacMillan took over, the Chiefs have been actually pretty decent in that area, and the Crusaders have been much better as well in the last 2 seasons.

I was on the edge of my seat the last 20 minutes. The second try from the Chiefs had me quite worried.

What an achievement from Scott Robertson. This season would equal his first title in 2017 regarding the challenge it presented. 46 members were used in the squad, that's huge people management.

Jane Robertson jumping in the circle for a victory jog was really cool as well.

I felt for Cane and Weber. Weber particularly, looked broken. I am not his biggest fan, but you could really tell he was feeling that at every level.

Some long illustrious super rugby careers are over. I imagine it's going to be quite an adjustment for some. It's hard for me to remember games where Whitelock and Rettalick weren't playing, or part of the environment.

The Crusaders have had some really exceptional power wingers in the last 10 years. Nandolo (probably my favourite), Tamiavulu, and LF. Each time one of them leaves I worry about how we will go the following year without a player of their impact, but somehow another player steps up. It will be interesting to see who is next in line.

I see ALB has been cited, that seems appropriate. I can't really see how it wasn't upgraded to a Red last night.

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#3094682 25-Jun-2023 13:07

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/crusaders-v-chiefs-clayton-mcmillan-laments-the-big-moment-that-swung-super-rugby-pacific-final/4PVKISA4CZAO5CMBRQR3LTHK7I/

Clayton MacMillans comment that the crowd giving it to the referees (and the opposition captain and coach) by booing as they headed on stage "shows something" is absolutely classless. It went on all game, and Kiwi fans need to seriously grow up. He missed an opportunity there to let the crowd know it's not an acceptable way to behave. Instead, he encourages it.

I don't want to bag the refs and then passive-aggressively does so.

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#3094696 25-Jun-2023 13:37

I thought the Crusader's ruck antics were past the point of absurd and they figured out they were pretty quickly not going to be policed very much in that part of the game compared to the Cheifs.

There was also a forward pass that was reminiscent of the knock-on in the Blues game that lead to one of the few tries in that game - not seen, not checked, but hugely obvious to anyone watching at the ground or at home. True, the Crusaders didn't get every call go their way, but if one goes in your favour and you score off it in a tight match, then that's all that matters.

But I don't think the real issue is the actual refereeing. As per usual, in a professional sports competition, working the officials probably gets you 5% more and I suspect that's all it takes to make the difference. Smith was great at it, Auckland are terrible at it and the Crusaders have turned it into a dark art. Whether that survives the coming roster upheaval in the Crusaders camp is another matter.

What worries me about the whole thing is that Cane had nothing other than exasperation in response and even got himself sent off at the death on his own line. The All Blacks aren't going to get favourable reffing at the World Cup and we need a captain who can basically do what the Crusaders do, which is work the officials, even if not in their own favour, but just to slow down the frustration from the ref on the park. Otherwise they escalate like they did last night.

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#3094757 25-Jun-2023 16:38

networkn:

I don't want to bag the refs and then passive-aggressively does so.

Let me translate for you.

“I very much want to blame the officials for the way they conducted the game this evening. I cannot do so however, because of the rules around me doing so.”

The crowd in Hamilton behaved the way they did not because they were disappointed that their team lost, but they were truly angry at the way the game had been conducted.

We switched off immediately after the final whistle. I can only assume Robertson did his break dance? Maybe he needs to read the room if he did, because with the crowd in the mood they were (have spoken to some who attended since), it would have been akin to dancing on someone’s grave. No wonder they booed.

Okeefe was already warning the Chiefs when they were halfway up the field that another yellow was coming. The Chiefs didn’t take the hint. Thereby forcing Okeefe’s hand into using yellow. They effectively didn’t play the ref well enough. Does the “penalty count” include penalty advantages awarded? It would be interesting to see what the number of detected infringements was compared to penalties awarded (for both sides).

But it was the forward pass, that even Wayne Barnes would have detected, leading up to the second Crusaders try that lit the crowd up. 35000 people in the stadium and countless viewers saw it. It appears the only ones who didn’t were the 4 match officials. So that, and McKenzie failing to take 3 steps further back at the lineout for the disallowed try were the pivotal points of the game.

At times the match displayed the best rugby can offer with 3 great open field tries (and a fourth that was disallowed on a technicality). But then it also displayed the worst, with two rolling maul tries, an anathema to the game. Even those were only achieved after the ref depowered the defence by sin-binning a loose forward each time. The sooner the dumb rule that allows players to obstruct defenders from attacking the ball carrier, the better.

The bright spot was the scrums though. The few scrums that there were, were conducted without reset or infringement. Because everybody loves the time wasted on a reset, don’t they?

As a Chiefs supporter I don’t mind the loss, but I shouldn’t come away from a game angry. My worry that the game would be marred by cards and controversy proved well founded.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3094816 25-Jun-2023 20:00

Dingbatt:

Let me translate for you.

“I very much want to blame the officials for the way they conducted the game this evening. I cannot do so however, because of the rules around me doing so.”

The crowd in Hamilton behaved the way they did not because they were disappointed that their team lost, but they were truly angry at the way the game had been conducted.

We switched off immediately after the final whistle. I can only assume Robertson did his break dance? Maybe he needs to read the room if he did, because with the crowd in the mood they were (have spoken to some who attended since), it would have been akin to dancing on someone’s grave. No wonder they booed.

Okeefe was already warning the Chiefs when they were halfway up the field that another yellow was coming. The Chiefs didn’t take the hint. Thereby forcing Okeefe’s hand into using yellow. They effectively didn’t play the ref well enough. Does the “penalty count” include penalty advantages awarded? It would be interesting to see what the number of detected infringements was compared to penalties awarded (for both sides).

But it was the forward pass, that even Wayne Barnes would have detected, leading up to the second Crusaders try that lit the crowd up. 35000 people in the stadium and countless viewers saw it. It appears the only ones who didn’t were the 4 match officials. So that, and McKenzie failing to take 3 steps further back at the lineout for the disallowed try were the pivotal points of the game.

At times the match displayed the best rugby can offer with 3 great open field tries (and a fourth that was disallowed on a technicality). But then it also displayed the worst, with two rolling maul tries, an anathema to the game. Even those were only achieved after the ref depowered the defence by sin-binning a loose forward each time. The sooner the dumb rule that allows players to obstruct defenders from attacking the ball carrier, the better.

The bright spot was the scrums though. The few scrums that there were, were conducted without reset or infringement. Because everybody loves the time wasted on a reset, don’t they?

As a Chiefs supporter I don’t mind the loss, but I shouldn’t come away from a game angry. My worry that the game would be marred by cards and controversy proved well founded.

I am quite clear on what MacMillan was saying.

If Chiefs fans are angry, be angry at your team. They were the undisciplined ones. If you are angry at the forward pass, then realize everyone should be much more unhappy with the fact ALB was only given yellow for what was clear to everyone in the stadium and at home, but apparently not the 4 match officials, a red card offence. If that had been adjudicated correctly the game was likely over. The side entry penalty on the Chiefs 5m line could easily have been a penalty try, because it led to the collapse of the maul which was set and had good momentum.

In the exact reverse situation, if I posted what you have above, I would be eviscerated by all in sunder for being a one-eyed Cantabrian.

I can certainly understand your being disappointed at the loss, but in my mind, your anger is well misplaced.

For the record, the forward pass if it was detected would have been a scrum. What ended up happening was that the Chiefs had a scrum on the other side of the field at almost the same position and the Crusaders won a penalty from that scrum, which led to the try.

Calls went against both teams. The forward pass is a very strange thing to hang your hat on, there were so many other moments that could have led to a Chiefs win. Damien MacKenzies' kick at 55m, was the wrong choice.

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#3094859 25-Jun-2023 21:30

Maybe you need to rewatch the game between minutes 33:40 and 35:40.

Forward pass, chip kick by Drummond, gathered by Narawa who kicks for touch on the opposite side of the field, the ball going out further back than where the forward pass occurred. So no advantage.

From the ensuing Crusaders lineout, they did a rolling maul before spreading it wide for Mo’unga’s try.

That’s completely different from a Chiefs scrum on the other side of the field.

I agree McKenzie’s 55m penalty attempt was foolhardy. They would have been better to go for the sideline and get closer to the Crusaders line. But in the end the last minute penalty would have sealed it for the Crusaders anyway. It just would have been 25-23 instead of 25-20.

Oh, and everyone who participates in the this thread knows you are a “One Eyed Cantabrian”. Own it and revel in it. Supporting sports teams is tribal at its base.

Victors get to write the history and in a couple of years time the name engraved on the trophy will be the only record that matters.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3094864 25-Jun-2023 22:45

Yeah, not really interested in revelling in such a derogatory title given I am one of the very few that participate here, willing to criticize my own team :)

At the end of the day poor discipline and some fairly average decisions during the game, were the reason the Chiefs didn't take the title. Without 3 yellow cards (one of which should have been a red, a far more egregious error than the forward pass not being detected) and fewer penalties in total, I believe it quite likely the Chiefs would have won last night.

Fans need to wake up and realize that, and stop blaming the referees.

Games are full of 'what ifs', we all do it, but the reality is, the result was the correct one.

I am still trying to work out why the side entry on the Chiefs line, which clearly affected the Maul, wasn't awarded as a penalty try to the Crusaders. It was deemed side entry, rather than collapsing the maul, but it was a contributing factor and almost certainly would have resulted in at least a 5 pointer to the Crusaders.

FWIW I think that was the best ever Chiefs season. Despite falling a fraction short in the final, they played better and more disciplined rugby than in their 2 title years, they are building some great depth, and there is every chance they can go one step further next year.

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#3094877 26-Jun-2023 06:32

networkn:

Fans need to wake up and realize that, and stop blaming the referees.

Games are full of 'what ifs', we all do it, but the reality is, the result was the correct one.

I think part of it is also that being able to run the Crusaders close in a game like that and then lose out on what is a super obvious missed call is the hard bit to process. There's a difference between a 50/50 call not going your way and one that almost everyone but the four dudes tasked with watching for that exact issue being the one that cooks you when they don't see it.

They have certainly had their bacon saved by the officials a few times against the Blues; which IMO is actually worse given that the default expectation is that the Blues will just stuff it up anyway (cough cough line-out fees not straight). When they don't stuff it up but instead go down because of a terrible call, that's tough to get your head around, especially against a team like the Crusaders.

I guess the answer is to make fewer mistakes yourself so you can't be 50/50'd out of the game, but that doesn't help you if things like forward passes and clear knock-ons are going to get missed.

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#3094882 26-Jun-2023 07:38

What I can’t quite figure out is why the Chiefs abandoned the rolling maul once they got to the knock out stage of the competition?

Much as I hate it as part of the game, it IS part of the game.

Earlier in the season, Takeaho was right up there with Taylor as a leading try scorer. Almost all of which came from the Gain a penalty - kick it to the corner - score a rolling maul try, tactic.

But that seemed to be abandoned in the business end of the season. As was proven again on Saturday, beyond the mechanism of purely scoring points, it is a minefield for defenders to not infringe. That is where the Crusaders out-think the opposition. Getting a defender in the bin is just about as important as scoring points. All the Crusaders tries in the final were scored against 14 men.

Early in the game, with the Chiefs attacking in the red zone, the Crusaders gave away 3 penalty advantages in a row. When the play was blown up, the Chiefs settled for McKenzie slotting it over for 3. The boot of McKenzie had saved some blushes earlier in the season, but as a primary tactic it is flawed. When the roles were reversed, the Crusaders continued pressing for the rolling maul try, which they got as well getting the opposition carded. In the round-robin wins, the Chiefs were still using the rolling maul. QED.

With the benefit of calm reflection, that to me was the prime difference between the teams in the final. The Crusaders used all the weapons in their armoury, the Chiefs left one of theirs on the rack. That goes back to the team management, and where Robertson’s team out-thought McMillan’s.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3094889 26-Jun-2023 08:13

networkn:

Commiserations to the Chiefs fans. Discipline was the difference.

I was pretty surprised because since MacMillan took over, the Chiefs have been actually pretty decent in that area, and the Crusaders have been much better as well in the last 2 seasons.

I read a stat that prior to the final the Chiefs had the worst discipline of all super teams with 10 yellow cards and the Crusaders only had 5 during the season. Worst culprit for the Cheifs captain Sam Cane. Then what happens in the final...? The team with the worst discipline gets exposed making their team total 13 YC's for the year.

As a Crusaders fan, we can now look back on a streak that will NEVER be eclipsed. 7 titles in a row is incredible.

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#3094892 26-Jun-2023 08:29

As a card carrying neutral with a passing interest in this game, I have to say, despite the obvious to-and-fro over whether the win was justified, it's nice to see the new All Blacks coach sign off with a win.
It's the kind of positivity that is needed for his future. If he'd lost that game, there would have been the usual suspects asking if he was the right choice etc.

I do find him to be an unusual fella - but maybe that's the result of concussions or something. Anyway - looking forward to the All Blacks season now, where at least we can all get behind the same team, I hope.

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#3094912 26-Jun-2023 08:52

JPNZ:Worst culprit for the Cheifs (sic) captain Sam Cane.

Would be interesting to compare his stats to Richie McCaw in his heyday.

I used to hate when Richie “cheated” for the Crusaders, but fully supported him “cheating” for the All Blacks 😁.

I make this observation with respect to prowess as a loose forward, not as a team captain. I believe Cane was made captain because of his often inspirational work rate. The more time goes on, the more I question his ability to make decisions on the field.

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#3094927 26-Jun-2023 09:09

I think part of it is also that being able to run the Crusaders close in a game like that and then lose out on what is a super obvious missed call is the hard bit to process. There's a difference between a 50/50 call not going your way and one that almost everyone but the four dudes tasked with watching for that exact issue being the one that cooks you when they don't see it.

They have certainly had their bacon saved by the officials a few times against the Blues; which IMO is actually worse given that the default expectation is that the Blues will just stuff it up anyway (cough cough line-out fees not straight). When they don't stuff it up but instead go down because of a terrible call, that's tough to get your head around, especially against a team like the Crusaders.

I guess the answer is to make fewer mistakes yourself so you can't be 50/50'd out of the game, but that doesn't help you if things like forward passes and clear knock-ons are going to get missed.

Whilst you are worried about the 'super obvious missed call', you seem to have missed the Crusaders were on the end of one too. No chance ALB shouldn't have been on the sideline for only 10 minutes, I believe that likely would have had a greater or equal effect on the game.

The Coach and team and fans need to recognize that it wasn't this call that cost them the game, but their ill-discipline. You can only control what you do, and what the Chiefs could have done was make better choices, and that would likely have been enough. As long as they want to focus on a single point in a game, and not look at themselves, they will continue to make those mistakes.

If the situation was reversed and the Chiefs had won and I was focused on this one point, it's exactly what people would be saying in reverse.

The Blues can't really complain about the moments where things don't go their way, after having had 2 very undisciplined years where they got away with pretty much everything. Remember the game they should have lost in Australia where they got 28 penalties and NO cards?

This was NOT the referee's fault, and booing them, and the opposition team, and for the coach to encourage it, is utterly unacceptable, and classless.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for the Chiefs having lost when their hopes were so high, it's always tough. Lots of positives from this season though.

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#3094934 26-Jun-2023 09:22

Dingbatt:

I believe Cane was made captain because of his often inspirational work rate. The more time goes on, the more I question his ability to make decisions on the field.

Cane is an inept captain and should be nowhere near the arm band for the AB's. Sam Whitelock would be the best captain for the All Blacks IMHO

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