Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

Forums › Sports › Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

1 | ... | 552 | 553 | 554 | 555 | 556 | 557 | 558 | 559 | 560 | 561 | 562 | ... | 640

6741 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3094937 26-Jun-2023 09:29

Except Lienert-Brown’s card that you keep bringing up WAS picked up, WAS acted on and WAS reviewed while he sat in the naughty chair. Whether the review decision was correct is debatable. The citing commissioner doesn’t think so, since it has subsequently been upgraded to a red. At least the review process allows a calm inspection without time pressure and for the most part this season infringements have remained as yellows. Because the contact is almost always accidental (Poor technique, onus on the tackler, blah blah blah) maybe there needs to be an “accidental contact” category?

Ive got to ask though, after the head clash, was Lienert-Brown assessed in an HIA? Just because you’re the tackler, doesn’t mean you haven’t been injured.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Mighty Ape

Shop now on Mighty Ape (affiliate link).

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3094954 26-Jun-2023 09:42

JPNZ:

Cane is an inept captain and should be nowhere near the arm band for the AB's. Sam Whitelock would be the best captain for the All Blacks IMHO

Inept feels a little rough, but I agree, Whitelock is better suited for the role. Ardie isn't captain material either, we need that man focused on doing Ardie things and absolutely no distractions.

I am going to be quite interested to see who gets appointed captain under Robertson. I suspect he will look to take a young up-and-coming lose forward ala McCaw.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3094958 26-Jun-2023 09:49

Dingbatt:

Except Lienert-Brown’s card that you keep bringing up WAS picked up, WAS acted on and WAS reviewed while he sat in the naughty chair. Whether the review decision was correct is debatable. The citing commissioner doesn’t think so, since it has subsequently been upgraded to a red. At least the review process allows a calm inspection without time pressure and for the most part this season infringements have remained as yellows. Because the contact is almost always accidental (Poor technique, onus on the tackler, blah blah blah) maybe there needs to be an “accidental contact” category?

Ive got to ask though, after the head clash, was Lienert-Brown assessed in an HIA? Just because you’re the tackler, doesn’t mean you haven’t been injured.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because I have yet to see a single comment by anyone suggesting it shouldn't have been red. At the very least it was careless, and is somewhat close to reckless. I'll be genuinely outraged if that stays unpunished, and I would 100% feel that way if it was a Crusaders player who had done it. Perhaps if he gets suspended you'll be able to agree that the event would have significantly changed the game.

Let me ask you, do you really genuinely feel that the Chiefs would have won except for that forward pass not being picked up? Do you feel they deserved to win?

Dingbatt

6741 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3094968 26-Jun-2023 10:25

networkn:

Let me ask you, do you really genuinely feel that the Chiefs would have won except for that forward pass not being picked up? Do you feel they deserved to win?

If you read my comments, you’ll see I identify it as one of two turning points in the game. (In the paragraph below where I point out the Chiefs were the arbiters of their own misfortune.)

The Chiefs second try was scored from a scrum in a very similar position as where the forward pass was just 6 minutes prior. The TMOs have been quick to point out mistakes all season, sometimes taking play back a minute or more (remember the 50/22 that wasn’t?). For something that was so obvious and put up on the big screen, why wasn’t this one treated the same?

So who knows? As the saying goes “The dog would have caught the rabbit if it hadn’t stopped halfway across the paddock to take a dump”.

As for who deserved to win, since when has that mattered in sport? You may as well say “My team deserved to win, because they are my team”.

To quote Blackadder “If life was fair Baldrick, things like this wouldn’t happen”.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

GV27

5882 posts

Uber Geek

#3095021 26-Jun-2023 10:58

networkn:

The Blues can't really complain about the moments where things don't go their way, after having had 2 very undisciplined years where they got away with pretty much everything. Remember the game they should have lost in Australia where they got 28 penalties and NO cards?

This has to be a joke. It's not even close to a credible claim. The Blues lack of discipline has seen them whistled off the park in recent years, it's long been a talking point and a sore one at that for fans.

The difference is the Blues actually get penalised for things, to the extent that it ruins their season. Whereas the Crusaders seems to have statistically significant odds of being the beneficiaries when things other teams would get called back just get flat out missed altogether.

As I have alluded to previously, part of that is just being more effective at working the ref. But if they aren't going to call things like forward passes or knock ons that lead to tries, I'm not sure what else the defending teams have left at their disposal, other than just pushing boundaries in other areas.

Dingbatt

6741 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3095040 26-Jun-2023 12:24

Now that the Superrugby season is over, with its experimental laws, I have been pondering what could be retained/changed to make the game “better”.

Firstly I like the “Yellow on review for Red” system of sin-binning.

The IRB are not going to change anything to do with head contact because it is a player welfare issue that they are already being sued over.

The laws around the breakdown need to be simpler. Here are just a few sound bites of refs during a ruck/maul

”Leave it”

”No!”

”Roll away”

”No, you’re holding him in there”

”Ball’s available”

“Ball’s out”

”Get back”

”Hands behind the line”

”Let it go”

”Not supporting body weight”

That the referee needs to constantly coach players, whose job it is to play rugby, about whether they are breaking the rules or not, signals that the rules are too complicated. The rules were supposed to speed the game up, but perversely have done the opposite, with constant whistle blowing.

As soon as the halfback touches the ball with his hands I believe it should be live, none of the ‘waiting til he lifts it’ BS. I know they are supposed to play the ball within 5 seconds of the ref calling “use it!”, maybe after 5 seconds the ref needs to call “ball is live”. That would certainly speed things up.

If they can’t ditch the rolling maul altogether (my preference), then they need to take some hints from the only other time you’re allowed to have players between the defenders and the ball carrier, the scrum. For instance, it must remain on axis, not skewing off line, otherwise it is a mockery to expect defenders to ‘join through the gate’ while allowing the attackers to skew off and even detach into a secondary maul. Both these cases should be “maul over” and allow the ball carrier (and anyone in front of him) to be tackled. The rolling maul was invented by the northern hemisphere dominated IRB to try and answer southern hemisphere running rugby with forward dominated demi-set pieces like rolling mauls. The irony being the ones who mastered it best were South Africa.

I don’t think having a defender’s fingers between the ball and the grass should be “held up in goal”. The ball should be demonstrably clear of the ground before a held up is ruled. A number of times this year I am convinced there was at least one blade of grass touching the ball but it was still ruled held up.

In a similar vein, I’m not sure a goal-line dropout is the appropriate restart when a team has managed to get the ball over the tryline but is held up.

I’m sure it’s not an exhaustive wishlist, but it’s a start.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

afe66

3181 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3095090 26-Jun-2023 15:05

As season is over and I'm a highlanders supporter...

Should nz use the pick system if NFL to even out the teams where teams who finish bottom get first picks of the new good players...

(head down from supporters of teams with lots of all blacks)

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3095105 26-Jun-2023 15:30

afe66: As season is over and I'm a highlanders supporter...

Should nz use the pick system if NFL to even out the teams where teams who finish bottom get first picks of the new good players...

(head down from supporters of teams with lots of all blacks)

I imagine that would create a mass exodus. Imagine being forced to play for Auckland if you lived in Dunedin.

Wouldn't work here.

Dingbatt

6741 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3095112 26-Jun-2023 15:39

afe66: As season is over and I'm a highlanders supporter...

Should nz use the pick system if NFL to even out the teams where teams who finish bottom get first picks of the new good players...

(head down from supporters of teams with lots of all blacks)

Wouldn't that just mean the Highlanders get first pick every year?😂

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

PolicyGuy

1714 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#3095115 26-Jun-2023 15:44

networkn:

afe66: As season is over and I'm a highlanders supporter...

Should nz use the pick system if NFL to even out the teams where teams who finish bottom get first picks of the new good players...

(head down from supporters of teams with lots of all blacks)

I imagine that would create a mass exodus. Imagine being forced to play for Auckland if you lived in Dunedin.

Wouldn't work here.

Players would emulate John Elway and refuse to play in their 'drafted' club.
They'd probably prefer to play for a French club or even the Western Force

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3095154 26-Jun-2023 17:27

GV27:

This has to be a joke. It's not even close to a credible claim. The Blues lack of discipline has seen them whistled off the park in recent years, it's long been a talking point and a sore one at that for fans.

The difference is the Blues actually get penalised for things, to the extent that it ruins their season. Whereas the Crusaders seems to have statistically significant odds of being the beneficiaries when things other teams would get called back just get flat out missed altogether.

As I have alluded to previously, part of that is just being more effective at working the ref. But if they aren't going to call things like forward passes or knock ons that lead to tries, I'm not sure what else the defending teams have left at their disposal, other than just pushing boundaries in other areas.

No joke. They were heavily penalized, but they should have been even more so. In the 2022 season it was rare to see them onside, but were rarely picked up on it. For the number of penalties they gave away, the number of cards seemed very low as well. It was mostly non card able penalties (Not as many for high tackles etc). Any time you are conceding 28 penalities and not getting a card, you know you are working the referee exceptionally well. For the record, in that match there was a high tackle that wasn't even penalized and a forward pass missed IIRC.

No chance you haven't seen me giving it to the Crusaders (and All Blacks) for their lack of discipline over the last few years (though this year felt somewhat better), so it's not a Anti-Blues sentiment.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3095156 26-Jun-2023 17:36

Dingbatt:

Now that the Superrugby season is over, with its experimental laws, I have been pondering what could be retained/changed to make the game “better”.

Firstly I like the “Yellow on review for Red” system of sin-binning.

The IRB are not going to change anything to do with head contact because it is a player welfare issue that they are already being sued over.

The laws around the breakdown need to be simpler. Here are just a few sound bites of refs during a ruck/maul

--Snipped for Brevity of quoting--

I don’t think having a defender’s fingers between the ball and the grass should be “held up in goal”. The ball should be demonstrably clear of the ground before a held up is ruled. A number of times this year I am convinced there was at least one blade of grass touching the ball but it was still ruled held up.

In a similar vein, I’m not sure a goal-line dropout is the appropriate restart when a team has managed to get the ball over the tryline but is held up.

I’m sure it’s not an exhaustive wishlist, but it’s a start.

Agree on Yellow to be reviewed rule.

Disagree on the coaching on field, do you not recall a few years ago how much more the whistle was going? This was a reaction to that, and I think it's better to let the game flow more and that helps tremendously with that. So long as the warnings are brief and a failure to comply quickly is adhered to then all good. The game is noticeably faster now, esp things like lineout, which I used to fast-forward and now barely have time to find the remote for.

I think it would be harder to referee the blade of grass thing.

The dropout is faster than a scrum, I don't mind that.

I didn't like the 50/22 but it's ok now I am used to it.

I wouldn't want to be a rugby referee for anything. It's such a fast moving game, with so many moving parts, You can only look at one place at a time, and the sideline referees aren't going to see the finer points of movement and infringements from the sideline. I am not sure how you make the breakdown simpler, but the speed and effort at which (most) players clear the ruck now is immensely better than it was a few years ago.

GV27

5882 posts

Uber Geek

#3095217 27-Jun-2023 06:00

networkn:

No joke. They were heavily penalized, but they should have been even more so. In the 2022 season it was rare to see them onside, but were rarely picked up on it. For the number of penalties they gave away, the number of cards seemed very low as well. It was mostly non card able penalties (Not as many for high tackles etc). Any time you are conceding 28 penalities and not getting a card, you know you are working the referee exceptionally well. For the record, in that match there was a high tackle that wasn't even penalized and a forward pass missed IIRC.

No chance you haven't seen me giving it to the Crusaders (and All Blacks) for their lack of discipline over the last few years (though this year felt somewhat better), so it's not a Anti-Blues sentiment.

FWIW The Blues seemed to give away a lot of penalties after periods of attack on someone else's goal line. Trust me, there were more of those than my heart can probably handle in the last few years. But I'd generally suggest the Crusaders get away with murder at rucktime and just don't seem to get penalised for whatever reason - it seems they've figured out things like 'no clear release' are poorly enforced and have just decided to ride the odds. And I get it, that's smart.

I would have said the Waikato team are probably a step above that in terms of some of whole-of-game offending. But the Blues' biggest issue has been (for years now) stupid stuff like off-the-ball fouls that result in cards for key players. I'd love to know which teams play the most rugby with fewer than 15 men. I'm willing to bet they're up there.

I think there is still an issue in rugby where the position of the field isn't taken into account in deciding whether something is cynical. If you are playing a mostly clean game it seems to be accepted you should have more leniency when defending on your own goal line and just instead rob the game of all momentum by giving away a penalty. The Crusaders and Blues have mastered goal line defence - it's pretty thrilling to watch. The last thing we want to do is go back to the 'giving away 3 every time someone gets into your 22 is better than giving away 7' mentality from the NH teams. The threshold for a cynical penalty needs to be lower IMO, warnings need to come quicker. Players will adjust.

JPNZ

1519 posts

Uber Geek

#3095237 27-Jun-2023 07:54

After seeing Ben O'keeffe post 4 pages of Violence and death threats from his personal page its no wonder the game struggles for refs

Absolutely sickening from fans, its only a game FFS

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2023/06/rugby-referee-ben-o-keeffe-addresses-sad-reality-of-horrific-social-media-abuse-after-super-rugby-final.html

Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+

GV27

5882 posts

Uber Geek

#3095247 27-Jun-2023 08:44

JPNZ:

After seeing Ben O'keeffe post 4 pages of Violence and death threats from his personal page its no wonder the game struggles for refs

Absolutely sickening from fans, its only a game FFS

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2023/06/rugby-referee-ben-o-keeffe-addresses-sad-reality-of-horrific-social-media-abuse-after-super-rugby-final.html

Absolutely cooked. You can think the bloke had a bad night or missed something obvious, but what makes you decide to directly contact him to threaten him?

All of these people need to be flagged to NZRU - if they're players with a club then they'll be subject to a code of conduct. Missing a season for being a dickhead seems like a reasonable sanction.

1 | ... | 552 | 553 | 554 | 555 | 556 | 557 | 558 | 559 | 560 | 561 | 562 | ... | 640