Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#3095658 27-Jun-2023 23:04

Perhaps Chiefs fans will feel a little less aggreived by the result last Saturday and the forward pass knowing they should have spent 20 minutes not 10 with 14 now that ALB's citing confirmed a 3 week ban.

I see Bill Osbourne of the Chiefs has made a statement saying they condemn the treatment of the referee and have reached out to offer Ben O'Keefe support. I wonder if that includes Clayton MacMillan apologising for his comments on Saturday night. I'm guessing not.

What needs to happen is that all significant voices in NZ Rugby, need to come out condemning it. The players, coaches, administrators, other fans. We need to stomp this behaviour out by making it clear we as fans and Rugny lovers don't want fans who behave this way.

GV27

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#3095690 28-Jun-2023 08:39

networkn: Perhaps Chiefs fans will feel a little less aggreived by the result last Saturday and the forward pass knowing they should have spent 20 minutes not 10 with 14 now that ALB's citing confirmed a 3 week ban.

Not really, one is hypothetical and the other one actually led to a try.

If TMOs can check something over and over again to establish a threshold for a red card and a citing body decides otherwise, that's a different issue to literally everyone but the match officials seeing an absolutely massive forward pass that should have involved no deliberation whatsoever.

For it to be comparable, it would have been ALB getting no sanction at all, and the incident not even being checked until after the game, when the result was concrete and nothing would have changed, i.e. everyone missing it but only later going 'gee shucks, can't change it now!'.

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#3095720 28-Jun-2023 09:38

GV27:

Not really, one is hypothetical and the other one actually led to a try.

If TMOs can check something over and over again to establish a threshold for a red card and a citing body decides otherwise, that's a different issue to literally everyone but the match officials seeing an absolutely massive forward pass that should have involved no deliberation whatsoever.

For it to be comparable, it would have been ALB getting no sanction at all, and the incident not even being checked until after the game, when the result was concrete and nothing would have changed, i.e. everyone missing it but only later going 'gee shucks, can't change it now!'.

Agree to disagree.

The red card miss was just as egregious (some would argue worse, considering the apparent focus on player safety), and almost certainly would have played a bigger part in the outcome in the game, given an extra 10 minutes without the player, and the impact that would have had on the whole teams fatigue during the rest of the match.

I'm with Dingbatt in saying that both players should have been required to undergo a HIA.

I don't believe the forward pass would be being made as big of a thing if the final had been played between different teams or the result was reversed. I don't believe this was the reason the Chiefs lost the final, and I 100% believe that whilst I would be slightly annoyed about the missed forward pass in the reverse, I don't think I'd have felt the Crusaders would have won (or deserved to win) if the situation was reversed.

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#3095754 28-Jun-2023 10:41

I rewatched the game last night, the Chiefs had it won at 20-15, they were in possesion attacking the Crusaders but two huge turnovers stymied their attack and gave the Crusaders the ball and then territory up the field for the winning try.

What really became obvious to me on 3rd watch was how often the Chiefs kicked the ball, possibly McMillian asked them to try and play the game in the Crusaders half? The sad thing is the very few times they did run the ball and attack they looked great and were busting the Crusaders open often.

To me its a poor plan that they started playing like that towards the finals, dominating the game by kicking for territory and making the other teams make errors in their half. Problem is they played much better rugby earlier in the season when they were more based on attacking rugby.

My 2c anyways

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#3095895 28-Jun-2023 15:46

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300916031/all-blacks-hooker-dane-coles-calls-out-social-media-attacks-on-referee-ben-okeeffe

That's excellent.

timmyh

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#3095997 28-Jun-2023 21:34

Bit of a rant but I think I'm finally done with Super Rugby. Been watching a lot more Football and really got into the last EPL season plus an eye on the other major European football leagues. Here are the main reasons Rugby is leaving me cold and I would argue that 7 Super titles back to back is a sign of much deeper structural problems in the game that are turning a lot of fans off, regardless whether it is the Crusaders or anyone else winning them.

1. Dumb and frequently changing competition format.

We have a short league with partial Home / Away that seems pretty random and then a Playoffs format where the whole season comes down to one final game despite how you performed all season. I can't think of any other major league in any other sport in the world that is like this. The Chiefs were clearly the better team across this season with two comfortable wins over the Crusaders and finished well above them on points. To have all that count for nothing is of course going to lead to frustration. With 11 other teams then a season should be 22 matches long + playoffs, Super Rugby is only 14 matches regular season. The English and French Rugby seasons are full Home / Away and the United Rugby Championship is 18 matches in regular season with 16 teams. Then they all manage Playoffs AND they have the Champions Cup above this. AND they fit in all the Internationals.

The constant changing of the format most Super seasons doesn't help, what new teams are in / out. Weakness of Aussie teams is not helpful.

2. Playoffs are in Winter. In most leagues around the world the final stages of the main winter sports leagues are in the Spring, good weather, summer round the corner. Not us, the dead eye of winter is upon us, brrrrr.

3. Complex rules - how can anyone follow the highly technical breakdown rules which of course are then open to inconsistency and argument. Offside in Football is now absolutely clear and monitored by VAR. If it's really so critical that attackers are 10m away from a line out, then where is the line on the TV showing this, for every line out. It simply should NOT be possible to miss a forward pass like that.

4. The rolling maul is absolutely tedious and cannot be defended against. Why is it okay to truck and trailer from a line out? Just enough, get rid of it.

5. Never ending advantages for attacking teams almost every time and they go on for so many phases. And often shouldn't be a penalty offence, maybe a scrum or free kick.

The only short term solution I can see if the whole Super Rugby championship is going to come down to one game and a couple of calls is that the TMO should be able to rule on everything.

But I'm afraid the real truth is that we are trying to shoe horn our Southern Hemisphere competition into a format that suits the Northern Hemisphere and I think they will continue to get stronger at our expense. They have all the money and power.

Spare a thought for the South Africans who are half in the Southern and half in the Northern H. Their teams that are now in the United Rugby Championship have to play through their summer, I don't think that Northern Hemisphere teams visit SA over Dec, Jan and Feb, but the SA teams play each other on that rock hard ground - ouch. And somehow they also fit in the Currie Cup although teams and players are separate from URC. It's as if our NPC overlapped with Super Rugby but with different players. My heads hurting now.

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#3096003 28-Jun-2023 21:50

timmyh:

Bit of a rant but I think I'm finally done with Super Rugby. Been watching a lot more Football and really got into the last EPL season plus an eye on the other major European football leagues. Here are the main reasons Rugby is leaving me cold and I would argue that 7 Super titles back to back is a sign of much deeper structural problems in the game that are turning a lot of fans off, regardless whether it is the Crusaders or anyone else winning them.

1. Dumb and frequently changing competition format.

We have a short league with partial Home / Away that seems pretty random and then a Playoffs format where the whole season comes down to one final game despite how you performed all season. I can't think of any other major league in any other sport in the world that is like this. The Chiefs were clearly the better team across this season with two comfortable wins over the Crusaders and finished well above them on points. To have all that count for nothing is of course going to lead to frustration. With 11 other teams then a season should be 22 matches long + playoffs, Super Rugby is only 14 matches regular season. The English and French Rugby seasons are full Home / Away and the United Rugby Championship is 18 matches in regular season with 16 teams. Then they all manage Playoffs AND they have the Champions Cup above this. AND they fit in all the Internationals.

The constant changing of the format most Super seasons doesn't help, what new teams are in / out. Weakness of Aussie teams is not helpful.

2. Playoffs are in Winter. In most leagues around the world the final stages of the main winter sports leagues are in the Spring, good weather, summer round the corner. Not us, the dead eye of winter is upon us, brrrrr.

3. Complex rules - how can anyone follow the highly technical breakdown rules which of course are then open to inconsistency and argument. Offside in Football is now absolutely clear and monitored by VAR. If it's really so critical that attackers are 10m away from a line out, then where is the line on the TV showing this, for every line out. It simply should NOT be possible to miss a forward pass like that.

4. The rolling maul is absolutely tedious and cannot be defended against. Why is it okay to truck and trailer from a line out? Just enough, get rid of it.

5. Never ending advantages for attacking teams almost every time and they go on for so many phases. And often shouldn't be a penalty offence, maybe a scrum or free kick.

The only short term solution I can see if the whole Super Rugby championship is going to come down to one game and a couple of calls is that the TMO should be able to rule on everything.

But I'm afraid the real truth is that we are trying to shoe horn our Southern Hemisphere competition into a format that suits the Northern Hemisphere and I think they will continue to get stronger at our expense. They have all the money and power.

Spare a thought for the South Africans who are half in the Southern and half in the Northern H. Their teams that are now in the United Rugby Championship have to play through their summer, I don't think that Northern Hemisphere teams visit SA over Dec, Jan and Feb, but the SA teams play each other on that rock hard ground - ouch. And somehow they also fit in the Currie Cup although teams and players are separate from URC. It's as if our NPC overlapped with Super Rugby but with different players. My heads hurting now.

1) This has been largely COVID and SA pulling out, and trying to introduce the Pacific Teams. I think SR is worse for not having SA part of it.

4) Incorrect. The Crusaders have not conceded a try in 7 YEARS from a rolling Maul. AB's didn't after Ryan took over as forwards coach. It's defendable. I am not a massive fan of the rolling maul, but I think it could be made better by some rules changes, though I am not sure what would help.

5) Yes, there needs to be a change around advantages. I am not sure what would be ideal or fair. Perhaps 5 Phases and then the decision is made, or a certain amount of go forward?

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GV27

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#3096069 29-Jun-2023 06:22

networkn:

4) Incorrect. The Crusaders have not conceded a try in 7 YEARS from a rolling Maul. AB's didn't after Ryan took over as forwards coach. It's defendable. I am not a massive fan of the rolling maul, but I think it could be made better by some rules changes, though I am not sure what would help.

It is a blight on the game, to be fair, and the Crusaders not being penalised for something doesn't mean it makes any more sense in the context of the rest of the rules. I'd be surprised if the Crusaders have faced half the number of rolling mauls on their own line that they've scored from on other teams'.

It's really dumb that we will penalise a defending team into the ground for being offside if they aren't behind the last man's feet or whatever, but you can join a ruck or maul ahead of the actual ball carrier in some situations in the game and it's totally fine.

You can't really improve it through rules. You're not allowed to bring it down, you can't wheel it effectively and you can't come around the side. Changing any of those things bring into conflict with the other notions around general play (offside, safety etc) and in reality the rolling maul is just too powerful and sits at a stupid intersection of rules that makes it impossible to justify and ridiculously overpowered as an attacking tactic.

JPNZ

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#3096120 29-Jun-2023 08:09

timmyh:

1. Dumb and frequently changing competition format.

We have a short league with partial Home / Away that seems pretty random and then a Playoffs format where the whole season comes down to one final game despite how you performed all season. I can't think of any other major league in any other sport in the world that is like this. The Chiefs were clearly the better team across this season with two comfortable wins over the Crusaders and finished well above them on points. To have all that count for nothing is of course going to lead to frustration. With 11 other teams then a season should be 22 matches long + playoffs, Super Rugby is only 14 matches regular season. The English and French Rugby seasons are full Home / Away and the United Rugby Championship is 18 matches in regular season with 16 teams. Then they all manage Playoffs AND they have the Champions Cup above this. AND they fit in all the Internationals.

The constant changing of the format most Super seasons doesn't help, what new teams are in / out. Weakness of Aussie teams is not helpful.

2. Playoffs are in Winter. In most leagues around the world the final stages of the main winter sports leagues are in the Spring, good weather, summer round the corner. Not us, the dead eye of winter is upon us, brrrrr.

Thats how sport works with playoffs, one team has to win and the Chiefs had their chance. Miami heat ranked 8th made it all the way to the NBA finals is that unfair on the other teams that finished above them?
Its winter sport, rugby is always played in winter. It can't be moved due to the world cup this year, it can't be moved in other years due to International rugby window.

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timmyh

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#3096133 29-Jun-2023 09:21

JPNZ:

Thats how sport works with playoffs, one team has to win and the Chiefs had their chance. Miami heat ranked 8th made it all the way to the NBA finals is that unfair on the other teams that finished above them?
Its winter sport, rugby is always played in winter. It can't be moved due to the world cup this year, it can't be moved in other years due to International rugby window.

Number 1: Yes exactly my point, Miami had to earn it over multiple matches, not one single sudden death, likewise the other teams above them didn't fall on one single performance. The equivalent for Super Rugby would be a best of 3 or best of 5 series and then it wouldn't come down to one match and a couple of calls.

Number 2: Most winter leagues around the world go through the winter and conclude in Spring, the final rounds are a celebration of the sport in the improving weather. Because we are at the mercy of Northern Hemisphere calendar we start in Summer and finish close to mid-winter. In my view it should be a full Home / Away calendar of 22 rounds followed by playoffs. It could take breaks for International windows.

networkn

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#3096139 29-Jun-2023 10:09

timmyh:

Number 1: Yes exactly my point, Miami had to earn it over multiple matches, not one single sudden death, likewise the other teams above them didn't fall on one single performance. The equivalent for Super Rugby would be a best of 3 or best of 5 series and then it wouldn't come down to one match and a couple of calls.

I am not sure what your issue is? Almost every sport works this way, you have to make the final 8, then it's quarters, semis and grand final?

Finals are knockout matches. If you are good enough to win, you progress.

The only other way, is just everyone plays round robin and the person with the most points wins.

I am confused by your objection.

timmyh

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#3096144 29-Jun-2023 10:21

networkn:

timmyh:

Number 1: Yes exactly my point, Miami had to earn it over multiple matches, not one single sudden death, likewise the other teams above them didn't fall on one single performance. The equivalent for Super Rugby would be a best of 3 or best of 5 series and then it wouldn't come down to one match and a couple of calls.

I am not sure what your issue is? Almost every sport works this way, you have to make the final 8, then it's quarters, semis and grand final?

Finals are knockout matches. If you are good enough to win, you progress.

The only other way, is just everyone plays round robin and the person with the most points wins.

I am confused by your objection.

My point is that we have the worst combination, an incomplete short Home / Away regular season followed by sudden death playoffs that are at real risk of a bad call or two. It is a truncated competition that does not always reward the most consistent team and I can't think of any other sports comp in the world that is like this. Why can't we have a proper Home / Away season followed by Playoffs?

If we are going to persist with our truncated version then the TMO must be able to rule on anything that the ref misses, otherwise we are in this lottery situation. Again, no other major league in the world in any sport that I can see is like this.

networkn

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#3096269 29-Jun-2023 16:57

timmyh:

My point is that we have the worst combination, an incomplete short Home / Away regular season followed by sudden death playoffs that are at real risk of a bad call or two. It is a truncated competition that does not always reward the most consistent team and I can't think of any other sports comp in the world that is like this. Why can't we have a proper Home / Away season followed by Playoffs?

If we are going to persist with our truncated version then the TMO must be able to rule on anything that the ref misses, otherwise we are in this lottery situation. Again, no other major league in the world in any sport that I can see is like this.

I am not really sure how you are coming up with "not always reward the most consistent team".

In Super Rugby, the top 2 teams at the end of the round robin competition, went through the finals, each winning until they both reached the final. The two teams played and the second ranked team won. Seems to have worked perfectly. What exactly should the outcome have been?

The TMO absolutely can rule on what the referee misses, it happens all the time. It happened multiple times during the final. They missed a forward pass and made a horrible call on the red card, so one in each teams favour.

How many rounds of super rugby do you want in an 12-team competition?

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#3096273 29-Jun-2023 17:09

GV27:

It is a blight on the game, to be fair, and the Crusaders not being penalised for something doesn't mean it makes any more sense in the context of the rest of the rules. I'd be surprised if the Crusaders have faced half the number of rolling mauls on their own line that they've scored from on other teams'.

It's really dumb that we will penalise a defending team into the ground for being offside if they aren't behind the last man's feet or whatever, but you can join a ruck or maul ahead of the actual ball carrier in some situations in the game and it's totally fine.

You can't really improve it through rules. You're not allowed to bring it down, you can't wheel it effectively and you can't come around the side. Changing any of those things bring into conflict with the other notions around general play (offside, safety etc) and in reality the rolling maul is just too powerful and sits at a stupid intersection of rules that makes it impossible to justify and ridiculously overpowered as an attacking tactic.

I never mentioned anything about the Crusaders and penalties. I said that the Crusaders haven't conceded a TRY from a rolling maul in 7 years (Including against the Brumbies for whom in the last 5 years, has been their most successful try-scoring mechanism). That means they have successfully defended it, making it quite defendable, IF you know how and have the skills. I guess if I was a coach against the Crusaders I'd likely not bother spending much time on the rolling maul given how successful their defence has been of it, but I've seen plenty of attempts, so whilst I can't verify your comment that they haven't had to defend as many, it would warrant some evidence.

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#3096299 29-Jun-2023 17:42

My understanding is that the TMO was NOT allowed to rule on the forward pass because it did not result in a try within X number of phases. But they could rule on Mackenzie's line out offside cause that led directly to a try - although that same rule is infringed on other occasions that are not ruled on as no try directly results. This is a ridiculous inconsistency and the obvious thing to fix it is to allow TMO intervention at any time.

And as for our season length Super Rugby is unquestionably short compared to other International leagues. The French Top 14 have 14 teams so 26 rounds of regular season, English Premier Rugby is 11 teams so 20 rounds of regular season. Super Rugby has 12 teams so should have 22 weeks of regular season but actually only has 14. The French then have 3 weeks of playoffs and the English have 2 and Super Rugby has 3.

BUT - the top 6 French teams from season prior and the top 4 English teams, along with top few out of the United Rugby Championship (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy and Sth Africa) are ALSO playing the Champions Cup interspersed over the season. Northern H teams are having way more top quality club rugby than the Super Rugby teams are.

Why can't Super Rugby go for another 8 weeks? When Six Nations is on the Northern H club teams just have to get by without their International players, that would be interesting to see at Super Rugby level.

Anyway, I'm done with this but I'm still going with the Chiefs being the more consistent side across the competition, beating Crusaders comfortably in two matches and only just losing the 3rd despite huge penalty count and 3 yellow cards, yes one of which should've been a red.

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