Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Mad Scientist
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#3153540 30-Oct-2023 07:10

GV27:

The same logic says the points Barnes gifted them incorrectly was the difference as well. Can't have that argument both ways.

the refereeing in general were terrible, even if the card colours were indisputable

you have the ref apologizing for a wrong penalty but won't reverse it

but you have the TMO interjecting when he shouldn't and the ref won't tell him to shut up

can't play the game, play the SAs, play the ref, and play the TMO

but we've had the same issue every other WC. and every losing team have the same issue. it just seems the system have been lucky to SA to get 3 x 1 point wins in a row.

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GV27

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#3153541 30-Oct-2023 07:26

Batman:

the refereeing in general were terrible, even if the card colours were indisputable

you have the ref apologizing for a wrong penalty but won't reverse it

but you have the TMO interjecting when he shouldn't and the ref won't tell him to shut up

can't play the game, play the SAs, play the ref, and play the TMO

but we've had the same issue every other WC. and every losing team have the same issue. it just seems the system have been lucky to SA to get 3 x 1 point wins in a row.

The first card, I think, on the basis of it not being uprated to red for 'no malice' is the one that really requires a 'please explain'. If there was no malice then there arguably shouldn't have been a yellow to begin with.

As for Ardie, that was hugely annoying. There was the alternative penalty available, which was that if Ardie had rights, then the SA player must have not released the ball. It's not as if the ref blew up general play and would have robbed SA of an attacking opportunity, they'd actually committed an offence.

Cane's one is what it is. You can question if there was the same degree of effort put into finding mitigation as there seemed to be with Kolisi's from the TMO.

There's also the question of whether Smith's try should have been disallowed given the TMO intervened about a knock-on four phases back - which is clearly not allowed under the TMO guidelines.

So there's plenty of issues there for the IRB to front on, even though Cane's card is definitely what it is and should have been a red.

Ironically the most cynical one of all - the deliberate knock-on - is only ever a yellow under the rules and that was an actual example of deliberate foul-play that killed a movement in a game that was otherwise pretty hard to watch.

itxtme

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#3153548 30-Oct-2023 08:33

Handle9:

It’s going to really kill you when all of those “out of position“ players keep playing the same positions.

You misunderstand (typical). I am talking about using the All Blacks as a testing ground for alternate positions so that you can fit "the best players" in your full squad. This was an AB team that was the sum of their parts. Arguably the team was not chosen with consistency until the second half of 2022. If you think Beauden Barret is the best 15 in NZ I have a time-share to sell you.

The best thing about losing the final is that Foster the Imposter does not get to add RWC winning coach to his resume. This was a poor 4 year campaign, that got better in the last year, but sadly not with enough time to really gel the combinations consistently hence the up and down run to the WC.

People have alternative opinions to yours, feel free to actually offer perspective or alternative views with a well rationed discussion rather than one liners with zero substance

networkn

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#3153550 30-Oct-2023 08:48

itxtme:

You misunderstand (typical). I am talking about using the All Blacks as a testing ground for alternate positions so that you can fit "the best players" in your full squad. This was an AB team that was the sum of their parts. Arguably the team was not chosen with consistency until the second half of 2022. If you think Beauden Barret is the best 15 in NZ I have a time-share to sell you.

That is normal. All teams are testing positions throughout a cycle, it's usually only the last 12 months that combinations are truly formed. SA were changing theirs until the last game.

Where does BB go if not at 15? Who plays 14 if not Jordan (who was top try scorer from Wing this RWC).

The best thing about losing the final is that Foster the Imposter does not get to add RWC winning coach to his resume. This was a poor 4 year campaign, that got better in the last year, but sadly not with enough time to really gel the combinations consistently hence the up and down run to the WC.

People have alternative opinions to yours, feel free to actually offer perspective or alternative views with a well rationed discussion rather than one liners with zero substance

We are name calling?! We have referees getting death threats because people can't keep a lid on their emotions. Get a grip.

trig42

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#3153554 30-Oct-2023 08:56

I'm a bit gutted that we didn't win. I felt the team did enough, and were actually the better team in the second half. They just couldn't convert that into points. Maybe that makes SA the better team?

They did enough to be able to win it. I'm sad they didn't but I'm not so gutted as I was in 2019 or 2007.

I don't blame Barnes.

I DO think something needs to be done around the reach of the TMO. He ruined the first half of that game yesterday - and the coverage kept panning to people in the crowd like Djokovic and Federer - what must they think of this 'pinnacle' of the game when at points even the best referee in the world was confused?

itxtme

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#3153563 30-Oct-2023 09:20

networkn:

That is normal. All teams are testing positions throughout a cycle, it's usually only the last 12 months that combinations are truly formed. SA were changing theirs until the last game.

Where does BB go if not at 15? Who plays 14 if not Jordan (who was top try scorer from Wing this RWC).

We are name calling?! We have referees getting death threats because people can't keep a lid on their emotions. Get a grip.

You are confusing SA changes with the bench split which was different between Semi and Final and the rotation they used throughout the campaign. Things are not working if you have not settled on combinations 3 years into your cycle. Lets see where people are positioned next year.

Let me change it. "Foster who was an imposter coach". Not sure what this has to do with death threats to a referee, and why you are linking the two.

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#3153565 30-Oct-2023 09:43

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby-world-cup-2023/300998384/referee-wayne-barnes-targeted-with-death-threats-during-rugby-world-cup-final

networkn

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#3153567 30-Oct-2023 09:51

itxtme:

You are confusing SA changes with the bench split which was different between Semi and Final and the rotation they used throughout the campaign. Things are not working if you have not settled on combinations 3 years into your cycle. Lets see where people are positioned next year.

Let me change it. "Foster who was an imposter coach". Not sure what this has to do with death threats to a referee, and why you are linking the two.

And you are confusing playing different players for different opponents with not settling on combinations. You don't seem to take into account forced changes due to injury etc.

Late '22 is 3 years into the RWC Cycle.

If you weren't so enraged by the mere thought of Foster, you'd be able to see we actually did exceptionally well under the circumstances. We had a fully fit squad in time for the knock out stages, largely played our first choice players and came within 2 points of winning the entire competition.

That is as close to winning as it's possible to get. We were the best defensive team, we scored the most points, and the most tries. We fell short, we missed a conversion and a penalty kick, but we held SA to zero in the second half with 14 men on the field for 40 minutes. We scored 2 tries, one of which was incorrectly rubbed out (which may have meant we didn't score the second, but also may have meant we kicked that conversion from the other side of the field.

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#3153568 30-Oct-2023 09:54

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby-world-cup-2023/300998466/all-blacks-star-ardie-savea-named-world-rugby-player-of-the-year-springboks-snubbed

All Blacks winger Mark Telea took out the men's breakthrough player award to cap off a breakout year after bursting onto the international scene at the age of 26.

If I am honest, he wasn't my first choice to go, but he proved himself really well and justified both his award and his inclusion.

Let's GO.

itxtme

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#3153569 30-Oct-2023 10:00

You are confused. I am not enraged. I just think he was a poor coach. His record supports my view - not yours. Its unfortunate, but it is the reality. Its ok for people to not share your rose tinted glasses on him. It doesn't mean they are emotional or irritational, just that they disagree - and thats OK.

Also go back and read my post on the match, seems you skimmed it.

TeaLeaf

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#3153640 30-Oct-2023 11:51

GV27:

The first card, I think, on the basis of it not being uprated to red for 'no malice' is the one that really requires a 'please explain'. If there was no malice then there arguably shouldn't have been a yellow to begin with.

Bingo, a ref with cognitive issues (clearly not from playing Rugby, unless #10), a TMO trying to judiciary a mistake of their own highlighting via join the dots section sub section rules, is absurd for the sport and only going to make it more a snooze fest than exciting, soon we will be the soccer of contact sports with people celebrating "no try" wins like 0-0 in the EPL, or like Sa box kicking, roll the dice, load up on forwards for defense and hope for penalty kicks. Im struggling to see how someone suggested this Sa team are the best RWC team ever.

If anything bending your back to line up a head butt (the hard part of the skull) is far more dangerous than an accidental nose smoosh due to a tackle usually seen in ball and all (which removes near the only way to defend over a goal line one on one). For me the Sa yellow is far more dangerous, bending the back to drive the hard section of your head "through" the offense players head is illogical. I get they hoped it would mean to only see tackles where people are lower there for in non rugby logic means chances of heads clashing is lowered, but thats not how Rugby works sometimes when you dont have enough time to tackle like that.

But irrespective if we trying to rule the game by A I then we heading down a slippery slope of no continuity free flowing rugby.

This I saw in the Herald sums it up.

Rugby Report Card podcast saying the "TMO is an absolute disease on this sport".

TeaLeaf

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#3153641 30-Oct-2023 11:55

networkn: Mark Telea

Incredible in the final. His footwork gave us hope. along with Ardie and Aaron Smith who was just sensational on his final game, he went out in style.

The ref admitting he made mistake yet didnt stop the penalty kick is truely embarassing given they went back 4 phases in some incidents and it was ok to go back after awarding our first try.

Barnes needed HIa after trying to argue which direction is backward with the BS knock on.

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#3153658 30-Oct-2023 12:38

Overall, despite the fact that the AB's lost, I have to say as a casual rugby viewer, the rules and the constant stopping and starting, the changes to scrums, the interference by TMO etc have made rugby a boring watch for me and many like me.

It's a really hard watch now and has little flow and very little to attract the casual fan.

If the global powers that be do not address this, I fear for the future of the game. It's become stale, slow and boring.

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networkn

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#3153675 30-Oct-2023 12:43

Handsomedan:

Overall, despite the fact that the AB's lost, I have to say as a casual rugby viewer, the rules and the constant stopping and starting, the changes to scrums, the interference by TMO etc have made rugby a boring watch for me and many like me.

It's a really hard watch now and has little flow and very little to attract the casual fan.

If the global powers that be do not address this, I fear for the future of the game. It's become stale, slow and boring.

World cup finals games are often like this, defensive low scoring events. Same is true in many sports.

2015 AB's was an anomaly, we scored lots of tries and it was running rugby.

I don't think the Rugby Championship was like that, nor Super Rugby. NZ wants to play Rugby, SA wants to win and won't care one Iota how they do it :)

Wombat1

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#3153676 30-Oct-2023 12:44

Poor show by NZ and the media in general about the Barnes. In 1995 It was Suzy, now its the ref. Come on guys, lets admit we were defeated, and our moaning is sure making us look like idiots. We better than this.

Our current team is a far cry from 2011, and 2015. Not nearly as good, especially in discipline. We did not deserve a win yesterday. Did we really expect our current team to do just as good, if not better than the McCaw era. Our own 2011 and 2015 teams would have given us a big hiding if they played us today. We missed 2 kicks, thats not good enough.

Looking at SA, they are currently the best team they have ever been. Better than 1995, 2007, and 2013. They won. Enough said. We need to do better, admit defeat, and start preparing for the next WC. We have lots of work to do.

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