Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#3155019 2-Nov-2023 16:30

If Cane's was red (It was), with a much lower degree of force, then Kolisi's was Red too. Kolbes Yellow was very straightforward, just a shame it couldn't have been more, given you'd certainly back Barrett to beat a single defender, to score that try.

With that, I am done discussing the final. I'm still a fraction salty, but it achieves nothing. History books are written.

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#3155022 2-Nov-2023 16:34

The Crusaders haven't even started 2024 but they are bringing in injury replacements! Latest announcement is Leigh Halfpenny, who I rate well enough, but at the ripe old age of 35 isn't going to be beating too many tacklers. I have already tempered my expectations in 2024 of both the AB's and Crusaders results, given what we have lost in experience and firepower. Having said that, half way through 2023 I thought the Crusaders were going to be lucky to get past the Quarters so bad was our injury list, and how much we struggled throughout the season with form.

Handle9

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#3155030 2-Nov-2023 16:50

networkn:
If Cane's was red (It was), with a much lower degree of force, then Kolisi's was Red too. Kolbes Yellow was very straightforward, just a shame it couldn't have been more, given you'd certainly back Barrett to beat a single defender, to score that try.

With that, I am done discussing the final. I'm still a fraction salty, but it achieves nothing. History books are written.

Which part of the described mitigation in Kolisi do you disagree with.

itxtme

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#3155192 2-Nov-2023 23:04

Handle9:

Which part of the described mitigation in Kolisi do you disagree with.

Heres an interesting take https://www.planetrugby.com/news/law-discussion-comparing-sam-cane-and-siya-kolisis-tackle-offences-in-the-rugby-world-cup-final

The points made in it are valid, but talk more to World Rugby and what they have decided is "mitigation" as opposed to the reality of human physiology.

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#3155196 2-Nov-2023 23:27

itxtme:

Handle9:

Which part of the described mitigation in Kolisi do you disagree with.

Heres an interesting take https://www.planetrugby.com/news/law-discussion-comparing-sam-cane-and-siya-kolisis-tackle-offences-in-the-rugby-world-cup-final

The points made in it are valid, but talk more to World Rugby and what they have decided is "mitigation" as opposed to the reality of human physiology.

It's a pretty good article with some aspects I disagree with. The article says Kriel was in a dominant position. Cane made an upright and "dynamic" tackle, he wasn't passive. Dynamic is described as "Feet can be stationary or moving , Body moves forwards or upwards with force through the hips/legs/shoulder."

The other thing that I disagree with was the height issue with Kriel. His height didn't change when after Cane initiated the tackle. At that point it's on Cane, especially when he is upright. It didn't get mentioned by Barnes in his explanation to Savea but in some cases upright tackles have been ruled as always illegal and therefore unable to be mitigated in any way.

The final aspect that the artcle didn't mention was that Kolisi was bent through the hips. This is one of the markers the referees/bunker officials use to determine whether it's an attempt to make a legitimate tackle.

I fundamentally disagree with the premise that you can get rid of head contact with red cards and not changing the laws. I think it's stupid and ignores the reality of a contact sport. Interestingly Nigel Owens agrees, he's said on social media that he feels that outlawing the upright tackle is the right way to go and he favours reducing the use of the TMO. Saying all that the decisions as made appear correct to me. The laws are what they are and the same for both sides.

The All Blacks really should be better here. Joe Schmidt was the DOR and High Performance for World Rugby when the basis of the current process was introduced in 2021.

For a really comprehensive and well researched explanation of the HCP Rugby and the Law has a superb blog post with lots of examples of how the judiciary and referees view the process. Its worth reading to understand the thinking, some of the issues involved and some of the flaws in the process.

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#3155200 3-Nov-2023 00:01

For what it's worth this is Nigel Owens explanation of the cards. He didn't view the knock on as worthy of comment but he viewed the Etzebeth off side as being worth of a yellow card.

GV27

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#3155203 3-Nov-2023 06:14

itxtme:

Handle9:

Which part of the described mitigation in Kolisi do you disagree with.

Heres an interesting take https://www.planetrugby.com/news/law-discussion-comparing-sam-cane-and-siya-kolisis-tackle-offences-in-the-rugby-world-cup-final

The points made in it are valid, but talk more to World Rugby and what they have decided is "mitigation" as opposed to the reality of human physiology.

Bingo. This agrees with my assessment that the actual level of danger was far lower in Cane's tackle.

That you could argue mitigation for Kolisi requires you to accept a level of uncertainty that was not allowed for when it came to Cane.

The rules may be the same for both teams, but that doesn't mean they get applied equally. Owen Farrell continues to be a prime example of this.

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#3155304 3-Nov-2023 11:10

GV27:

Bingo. This agrees with my assessment that the actual level of danger was far lower in Cane's tackle.

From players perspective its hard to argue this and as Ive stated before, bending at the hips allows a lot more force to be driven into the head. Where a bear hug tackle, often used to stop a try both in union but more so in league, is legit, and often they are mere reflex, with a face to face clash being less dangerous of the accidents imo.

However the rules kinda do back up Kolisi's as per this arcticle which is short and to the point on all the bad calls, although Im sure there was another. But it does outline to some degree why Canes had little element of danger, but for me the fact there wasnt an HIa involved says it all. Like in League in my view any accidental head clash should not even be considered for a penalty and left up to the TMO with Match and or Team Doctors to decide if an HIa is required. In other words, as per Barnes not initially reacting to it (Im sure he saw it), the rules should remove this from being a card. However even with the current rules the interpretation of danger was welll over the top, there is an article I forgot to post, who actually made the call to upgrade it, will try to find that.

Im now leaning on the side of this article that the first yellow wasnt a yellow at all. Which cost NZ 6 points.

The last two in this article highlight what a dog act SaF are, this is where imo Union needs to implement similar law to League where constant flagrant rule breaking sees a man put in the bin for ten. IMO nobody deserved that ruling than the Faf the Cook who is such a little cheat, the deliberate holding the ball from the scrum should have been a free kick to NZ (and as per my thoughts, 10 in the bin).

RWC ref review: Was Wayne Barnes really that bad in the final? | The Posts

Barnes, well, I respect that he is highly respected, but every game Ive seen him rule, has made me enjoy Union less. He is very much a UK ref. Or was, with his retirement announced. Cant say I will miss him, but Im sure some will, to which I can understand.

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#3155328 3-Nov-2023 11:11

Handle9:

Yes I’ve played rugby. I’m also familiar enough with the HCP to know that Cane didn’t have mitigation. You can try and create your own but the Cane red card and the Kolbe yellow were both really straightforward decisions and consistent with the way rugby is refereed today.

Out of interest: What do you think Cane should have done, given the limited time he had to react?

In other news: I see Barnes has resigned. He'll never again have to referee the ABs who he so clearly dislikes, we'll never have him as a ref again and rugby will be better as a game without him officiating it. Win-win-win.

He's 44 and his other profession is as Barrister, so maybe he'll go back to that.

Mike

GV27

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#3155332 3-Nov-2023 11:19

TeaLeaf:

Barnes, well, I respect that he is highly respected, but every game Ive seen him rule, has made me enjoy Union less. He is very much a UK ref. Or was, with his retirement announced. Cant say I will miss him, but Im sure some will, to which I can understand.

TBH I don't know how well any other ref, even Owens would have done, with that level of support from the TMO.

The two issues for Barnes that really need some help explaining are the first yellow (which, if not intentional as per the red card review, shouldn't have been a yellow at all) and not ruling the TMO's interjection on the Smith try out of order when it was far too far many phases back. Both game-changing moments, both instances where the officials were at sixes and sevens over the actual rules.

But that's not for him to address after the game in his personal capacity, it's for World Rugby. And by not actually addressing it, they make the online stuff harder. Supercars is coming around to this way of thinking and you'll frequently see Craig Baird engaging with people about driving standards decisions where they become contentious.

I would also be prepared to bet there's no formal mechanism for him to question the understanding of a TMO during a live match that is operating outside of their actual powers. Again, this is a World Rugby issue. For the sake of the credibility of the game, they need to be fronting up. They might find people go easier on their refs if they're prepared to acknowledge who is responsible for whether their officials have a clear understanding of the rules.

TeaLeaf

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#3155334 3-Nov-2023 11:22

MikeAqua:

Out of interest: What do you think Cane should have done, given the limited time he had to react?

He'll never again have to referee the ABs who he so clearly dislikes, we'll never have him as a ref again and rugby will be better as a game without him officiating it. Win-win-win.

Exactly, I think most who have played agree it was instinct and not even and HIa worthy incident, common sense was not applied by whoever made the decision, which Barnes just went along with even though he would have seen it live and thought like most, wee accident off an instinctual tackle.

I wanted to say that about him and the ab's haha.

"Retired" is the word being used.

Yes he pointed out he is a barrister when he got the death threats, more to say Rugby isnt my life.

Im trying to remeber, how did he perform in our Bronze match vs Wales in Japan WC?

TeaLeaf

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#3155338 3-Nov-2023 11:39

Dont worry, the full contact free flowing version of Rugby will "ease" the pain when we beat aus in the finals clash on Saturday. Typical newshub clickbait voice byte. CNK is genuinely an abs fan as are most of NZ RL, hes also one of the best humans going around and one of the bravest full backs Ive ever seen.

Rugby league: NZ Kiwis hope to ease pain of All Blacks' World Cup defeat with Pacific Championship title victory against Australia | Newshub

and good luck getting answers.....

Rugby World Cup: All Blacks demand answers over controversial refereeing decisions in World Cup final | Newshubn

Foz says hes just got off a 24 hour flight with very little sleep, which we all know sucks doing a no stop over from Europe. He then gets another question around something he wouldnt have had a chance to see, B grade journalists should be sent to the frontline of War to up their skills ;-p. He seemed pretty calm though, even though that is his personality it seems. Was nice to see support for the abs, especially Sam Cane. His face was like that of somebody within days of death when it happened, that hollow depressed, seen a ghost look. Cant say Im a huge fan but he didnt deserve a card imo, but to get a red in a final must be something very very hard emotionally, especially the captain.

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#3155342 3-Nov-2023 11:51

Wayne Barnes has retired from International Refereeing (As was likely always the plan).

TeaLeaf

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#3155345 3-Nov-2023 11:56

networkn:

Wayne Barnes has retired from International Refereeing (As was likely always the plan).

yep, noted couple times, seems popular news :-). I personally dislike most UK refs, I don't know why, what it is that makes them seem to blow the whistle more. But that TMO in a WC final, are just as much to blame for some of the incorrect decisions. But ultimately Barnes makes the final decision.

Id say a long Sabbatical, I hope very much not commentary, then back to law I would assume.

Wombat1

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#3155423 3-Nov-2023 13:33

TeaLeaf:

Im now leaning on the side of this article that the first yellow wasnt a yellow at all. Which cost NZ 6 points.

And our kicking stats were terrible. To win a World Cup you need to have good discipline, score tries, and make your kicks. We are nowhere nearly as good as where we should have been. We all knew this before the WC even started. Let's not harp on about the loss because we were just not good enough. Blaming the ref etc etc just makes us look like sore losers.

The boks outplayed us, and they proved that to us even before the WC started with our 35/7 loss in August. Scott Barrett's yellow in that game was a warning that we needed to improve on our discipline, we never did. We got plenty more cards through the tournament, we never learned anything from them. We took the record for the most cards.

Time to accept our defeat, move on and prepare for 2027 in Aus.

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