Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#3226706 5-May-2024 17:32

tukapa1:

Not sure what your issue is with the refereeing? The two worst decisions of the night were the TMO not overturning the 'on field decision try' for Quentin Strange where the ball clearly never hit the grass and David Havili not having to go off for an HIA. I though the contact on Havili could have been called yellow, but in the circumstances of that collision I thought a penalty only was a good call in the end.

Fair to say the interference of Scott Robertson to have Havili at 1st five was a contributing factor to the Crusaders losing that game. He was pedestrian at 10 and I don't blame him for that, it's not where he plays so was always a big ask. My fear is that Robertson is trying to 'fit' his mates into the AB's squad. Still only two of the Crusaders should earn a form place in an AB's 23 at this point (Reece and Scooter), although with injuries mounting in other franchises they could squeak another one or two in.

That second try the Reds scored should be a contender for try of the season.

There's some good young Aussie players coming through and I'm sure Schmidt won't mis the opportunity to bring them in under his wing.

ROFL. Yeah, not surprised you don't see what the problem with the refereeing was. There was a high tackle that last year would have been a Red, or Yellow card at the very least, this match, barely a penalty. The Reds were penalized off the park, and no cards handed out. A miles forward forward pass conveniently missed. At the end of the day, you invite questions if you appoint 3 referees from the same region as a team that is playing. It's just dumb.

Havilli did pretty well for a guy who hasn't played 10 for a long time, was behind a non-performing forward pack (though we did show some good signs later in the game) and is only playing his second game in a very long time. 'Pedestrian' is nonsense. He will improve.

If you think Razor is going to put his 'mates' in the AB's, you clearly haven't been paying attention at all. He has been ruthless at times with his selections, though your suggestion 2 players would make the team is pretty clearly bias. Yeah, we aren't playing that well, which considering all the factors at play, isn't that surprising.

tukapa1

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#3226708 5-May-2024 17:49

networkn:

Havilli did pretty well for a guy who hasn't played 10 for a long time, was behind a non-performing forward pack (though we did show some good signs later in the game) and is only playing his second game in a very long time. 'Pedestrian' is nonsense. He will improve.

If you think Razor is going to put his 'mates' in the AB's, you clearly haven't been paying attention at all. He has been ruthless at times with his selections, though your suggestion 2 players would make the team is pretty clearly bias. Yeah, we aren't playing that well, which considering all the factors at play, isn't that surprising.

Havili did well within his limitations which is that he is nowhere near a Super Rugby level 10. He was only named there through interference by Robertson and was a contributing factor to that loss. Too slow as he had to think rather than act out of instinct, hence the charge down as the biggest example of that weakness that cost 7 points. He shouldn't improve at 10 because he shouldn't play there again.

In all seriousness, and please think about this before you reply, who else in that Crusaders squad would you put in a form AB's 23 right now?

And yes, I am enjoying the capitulation in Crusaders country as their supporters have been insufferable for the last 7 years. I can assure you I am not the only one. That's the price of success and every team in every sporting code that has had a winning run like the Crusaders faces the same response when they eventually fall. It's not some treasoness response. I would expect the same if my beloved Canes ever manage to win numerous championships on the run and I wouldn't cry about it....

Earbanean

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#3226866 6-May-2024 09:04

I watched the game and saw no systemic issues with refereeing. Same goes for all media write-ups of the game. You can see why Wayne Barnes, Ben O'Keefe, etc have spoken out in books, interviews etc. When entitled supporters blame the refereeing for their team losing for lots of other reasons, it eventually leads to abuse, death threats etc. It's an ugly part of the game.

SANZAAR have never claimed to be able to provide absolutely neutral refs. I remember the Chiefies being reffed by Glen Jackson - and he was an ex Chiefies player. I haven't seen any complaints about it in this thread - prior to the saders losing.

The saders were exceptionally unlucky with even more injuries - to Blackadder and Barrett. They then made a number of mistakes and were ultimately beaten by a team who played better on the night. It's sport. It happens. The Reds are a pretty decent team by they way.

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#3226933 6-May-2024 12:53

networkn:

The Reds were penalized off the park, and no cards handed out.

I don't remember them being penalised off the park - I seemed to remember there were a few in a row after half time and I didn't remember the warning or carding process being different than any other game. So I thought I would go back and check out the state of the penalties the Reds gave away. Reds were penalised 14 times, Crusaders 7 times. Reds penalties as follows;

3' Offside in front of the kicker (on attack)

10' Offside (on defence)

12' Side entry (around halfway)

14' Side entry (on defence)

17' Holding on (on attack)

28' Collapsed scrum (on defence)

35' Hands in ruck (around halfway)

37' Offside (on defence)

Halftime

48' Collapsed scrum (on defence)

49' Offside (on defence)

51' Not rolling at the ruck (on defence) (captain warned about number of penalties)

56' Havili taken in the air

65' Offside (on defence) (team warning)

73' Off feet at ruck (on attack in Crusaders 22)

Eight of the 14 penalties were while the Reds were on defence. The run of three from 48' to 51' earned the first talk to the Reds captain about number of penalties. The Reds didn't give away another defensive penalty for 16 minutes at the 65 minute mark where they were given the team warning. For the ref to have gone straight to his pocket at this point would have been totally inconsistent with how these scenarios are regularly reffed. Clearly the team warning did the job as the Reds only gave away one more penalty in the last 15 minutes and that was when they were hot on attack and desperate to get the ball back at the ruck.

So apart from a run of 3 defensive penalties from 48' to 51', they only gave away one other penalty on defence in the second half.

Yes - they gave away twice as many penalties overall than the Crusaders did, but they defended twice as much as the Crusaders did as well in that second half (67% possession for the Crusaders in the second half - 63% possession over the whole game). Probably a bigger issue was the Crusaders only having an 81% success rate at the tackle.

So you see what you want to see because it makes the pain easier, whereas I saw what I saw which is backed up by the stats (and what others here seem to be commenting they saw as well). And that's ok - that's what's called parochialism.

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/match/crusaders-vs-queensland-reds-at-apollo-projects-stadium-4th-may-2024/94506/chart

Dingbatt

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#3226948 6-May-2024 13:06

Meanwhile the Highlanders, Hurricanes, Blues and Chiefs all had wins 😁, so 👍.

Injuries a bit of a worry though.

Edit: And the Women’s and Men’s Sevens teams in Singapore as well 👍👍

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3229088 11-May-2024 17:25

Firstly, as a Chiefs supporter, I have no skin in the game I’m watching at the moment (Blues vs Hurricanes).

But I’m not happy with the officiating so far (35th minute).

The Blues stopped an almost certain try with a seatbelt tackle that would normally be penalised for being high, but…..crickets.

Then (later) Perenara stands up as he is being cleaned out by Akira Ioane and contacts Ioane’s chin, and Ioane is yellow carded with a red review (which was rapidly confirmed as only yellow).

It’s halftime and despite being penalised numerous times for defensive infringements in the red zone, the Hurricanes still haven’t been warned. Oh and they’ve scored 14-10 at the break.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

networkn

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#3229194 12-May-2024 10:03

Whilst it's never easy to watch your team lose, I can see that the Crusders are making some progress and that makes me hopeful for next season. I am not sure about Penney, I think he's been dealt two crappy cards in the Crusaders and Warratahs, injuries and senior players leaving have an impact and so I feel it's pretty unfair to judge him on what he is doing right now. Someone pointed out he was sitting in the box after the game and should have been down with his players, I'd agree with that. Perhaps that is part of the difference. Either way I remain unconvinced in either direction. if they let him go, fine, if they don't, hopefully, things start to gel.

Last night we lost by two and wouldn't have needed too much to have won it. Havilli made a very decent fist of 10 last night, a notable improvement over the week before. Unlike some, I feel he was OK at 10, better than Hohepa, last week.

Levi Aumua looks a shadow of himself most of the time, though he has started to come forward and stand up. He seems to have packed on the weight, that is more likely to hurt him than helped him.

Overall, our attack has improved and so has our defence and general structure. Unsurprisingly we look better when we can field the same players more often and also as our more senior players have returned.

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Dingbatt

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#3229288 12-May-2024 14:40

It was an interesting weekend of rugby for the NZ teams.

On Friday the Chiefs played down to Moana Pacifica’s level in the first half and only evident how their game lifted in the second half after getting a rocket from the coach. The they definitely suffered from no MacKenzie or Stephenson.

Saturday afternoon’s game could have gone either way. I commented earlier about some of the officiating. But in the end defence seems to have been the decider.

As for Saturday night, the Crusaders played like the team of old for about 15 minutes out of the 80 and came up against a Highlanders team that has got used to grinding their way through things. In the past the Highlanders would have played well for 60 minutes then let things slip away. Last night they didn’t until the last 2 minutes when the Crusaders had to score 10+ points. By that stage I believe the Highlanders players switched off and allowed the Crusaders back into the bonus point. They better hope that doesn’t come back to bite them. Havili is not a number 10.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

networkn

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#3229293 12-May-2024 15:11

Dingbatt:

Havili is not a number 10.

I am not arguing with you on this per se, however, I'd be interested if you could point to a couple of specific things in the Highlanders game, where a 10 would have done something different. Not looking for vague comments here, I'd like to know specifically.

I think Havili made a pretty decent fist of 10 last night. He's not the finished product. It's unlikely he will be used as our first choice 10.

I mean, if I asked you to make a fundamental change to your role in your team at work, say from technical, to sales, and gave you two weeks to be at the same level as the best sales people in the country, would you feel it fair to be judged on that after a fortnight?

Also, it's not a positional change he ASKED for, unlike Reiko Ioane, where it took him a good 2.5 years to get halfway decent and they still persisted with him.

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#3229311 12-May-2024 16:20

Exactly, he didn’t ask to be moved there and doesn’t belong there (imo). But I forgot that we aren’t allowed to have a critical opinion on a Crusaders player

In the past couple of weeks; Kicks going out on the full, kicks being charged down, being caught behind the game line. He is an outstanding defender and tackle buster, but he needs to be at 12, 13 or even 15.
I actually think Anton Lienert-Brown should be concerned about his place in the ABs. He seems to be a bit “off” at the moment and someone like Havilli would be better suited to that position.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3229382 12-May-2024 19:13

Dingbatt:

Exactly, he didn’t ask to be moved there and doesn’t belong there (imo). But I forgot that we aren’t allowed to have a critical opinion on a Crusaders player

In the past couple of weeks; Kicks going out on the full, kicks being charged down, being caught behind the game line. He is an outstanding defender and tackle buster, but he needs to be at 12, 13 or even 15.
I actually think Anton Lienert-Brown should be concerned about his place in the ABs. He seems to be a bit “off” at the moment and someone like Havilli would be better suited to that position.

It's quite the opposite, no one must defend or say anything positive about a Crusader here, they are all dirty scum and nothing good should ever happen to them. Any Crusader in the AB's is clearly there due to cronyism, but the sooner the AB's wake up and stop selecting Crusaders, the better off NZ Rugby will be. ( I understand you aren't quite in this camp as such, but general sentiment is much more in line with this than the other)

You have misread my question and or intent. I thought I was pretty clear, but not clear enough, that I am interested in understanding why people don't think he's a 10? What he isn't doing that a 10 should be doing? I am genuinely trying to understand.

Things like kicking out on the full, and being charged down, are things easily fixed, an quickly learned from. (and some responsibility on stopping that, comes down to forwards not protecting the player). To be fair it's a common enough problem to kick out on the full, RM did it a few times, trying for too much distance. He did however make a couple of outstanding kicks distance-wise too, and it's a double-edged sword. It's actually been a problem for all NZ Kickers this year, that they haven't found touch at all.

I am not sure if it was a typo, but I assume you mean gain line (being a net gain in territory)? It remains to be seen, but that could be a confidence thing. Our forwards were better last week, and slightly off that this week (though Taylor was a dynamo)

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#3232423 19-May-2024 14:20

So only the top 3 NZ teams came away with a win this weekend.

I thought initially the Hurricanes were in for a fright from Moana Pacifica, that impression quickly faded at about the 15 minute mark, never to return. Ruthless efficiency. I can only imagine what they would be like if Cam Roigard was available.

The Chiefs vs Rebels was a “scrappy” affair, and maybe that explains why there were so many seagulls circling above the game!😂 Possibly it was just the Rebels playing above themselves for (maybe) their last ever home game, but the Chiefs seemed to go to sleep for large patches. Thank goodness for MacKenzie’s kicking shoes.

With a front row consisting of Newell, Taylor and Moody producing forward dominance, the Crusaders should have absolutely cleaned up in Canberra. That dominance was squandered by knock-ons, dropped passes and aimless kicking. That they fought their way back is due in no small part to the inspirational play by McNichol and the magician that is Sevu Reece. And the “controversial” penalty try at the end kind of sums up the season. I don’t doubt the ball was deliberately knocked dead but the likehood that it prevented a try being scored was somewhere between possible and probable. Mind you penalty tries seem to get awarded for less sometimes. At the very least, the penalty that would have been awarded (for the deliberate knock dead), 5m to the left of the posts, would have represented a relatively easy kick, winning the game for the Brumbies.

The Highlanders also turned up for their game against the Blues. For the first 20 minutes anyway. Then fell away. I admit I was flicking between this game and the Phoenix once the rout was apparent.
I was surprised when you look at the minor head contacts that get forensically examined by the TMO and leading to yellow cards in the competition, that Tu’ungafasi’s shoulder directly (with force) to the head of Millar (40:32) went completely unnoticed and unpunished. Millar perhaps did himself no favours by immediately getting up and playing on. But when I watch his play for the next 3 minutes until he eventually goes off he is obviously dazed, takes a couple of more knocks before head on chin contact on the ground by Papalii draws blood and he goes off for a blood-bin that turns into a failed HIA. In the 56th minute they showed him in the stand, having failed the HIA and queued up a replay of the (first) head contact, with no further comment by the commentators.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3232450 19-May-2024 17:04

I can see the Crusaders are building toward something. Still too many errors, but some of their attack structures are quite interesting. It's not quite working as well as I think it will, but they put a top 4 team under genuine pressure, and even more importantly, managed to come back from a decent hole. I agree Sevu Reece is an absolute magician, for me, one if not *the* top player in SR Pacific right now. He absolutely scores tries no one else would or could, and is performing outside of his position with pretty decent aplomb. Fletcher Newall is a monster of a scrumager, I hope he stays fit. There is very little between them losing and them winning big I feel. It's having a few things tidied up, rather than an entire mess. A shocking missed forward pass by the Brumbies was annoying to see. It's perhaps just the camera angle this season, but for me a fair number of passes look forward every week across various matches that don't seem to be picked up. Chi Fihaki is playing well at fullback.

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#3232990 21-May-2024 12:19

Dingbatt:

So only the top 3 NZ teams came away with a win this weekend.

I thought initially the Hurricanes were in for a fright from Moana Pacifica, that impression quickly faded at about the 15 minute mark, never to return. Ruthless efficiency. I can only imagine what they would be like if Cam Roigard was available.

I need to modify this comment. I had only watched the first half as I had an early start the next morning. Having an opportunity to watch an extended highlights package the game wasn’t anywhere near the one sided affair that the final score indicated.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Earbanean

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#3233700 23-May-2024 09:51

"And in the hour of greatest slaughter, the new avenger will be born." I reckon the Crusaders have got something bottled up that's going to erupt this weekend. I'm picking them to beat the Blues. The tab has them paying $2.60. I'm hoping for a bit higher, and it may rise with customer flow before Saturday - then def worth a flutter IMO. Cody Taylor paying $16 for first try scorer. Hmmm juicy. Line out drive, in the boot...

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