Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#3233755 23-May-2024 12:07

Earbanean:

"And in the hour of greatest slaughter, the new avenger will be born." I reckon the Crusaders have got something bottled up that's going to erupt this weekend. I'm picking them to beat the Blues. The tab has them paying $2.60. I'm hoping for a bit higher, and it may rise with customer flow before Saturday - then def worth a flutter IMO. Cody Taylor paying $16 for first try scorer. Hmmm juicy. Line out drive, in the boot...

Despite all the gloom and doom, they haven't been THAT far behind. at least half their games could have gone either way. It's more complicated than just injuries and absences and people leaving, as to why they aren't performing. They have had a pretty average 10, goal kicking hasn't been amazing, but the biggest issue is playing time for combinations to form. You can't form combinations when players can't play together and playing together requires being able to field the same team week in and week out (mostly).

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networkn

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#3233757 23-May-2024 12:12

tukapa1:

So apart from a run of 3 defensive penalties from 48' to 51', they only gave away one other penalty on defence in the second half.

Yes - they gave away twice as many penalties overall than the Crusaders did, but they defended twice as much as the Crusaders did as well in that second half (67% possession for the Crusaders in the second half - 63% possession over the whole game). Probably a bigger issue was the Crusaders only having an 81% success rate at the tackle.

So you see what you want to see because it makes the pain easier, whereas I saw what I saw which is backed up by the stats (and what others here seem to be commenting they saw as well). And that's ok - that's what's called parochialism.

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/match/crusaders-vs-queensland-reds-at-apollo-projects-stadium-4th-may-2024/94506/chart

I think seeing what you want to see and parochialism, works in both directions. Let me put it to you a different way. If the Crusaders had been penalized 14 times in a match, warned twice, avoided what most people would believe was a clear yellow card, 2 forward passes were missed against the Blues, Chiefs, or Hurricanes, there is literally zero chance those clubs fans wouldn't be bitching and moaning, AND it would be significantly louder if it was all refereed by 3 judges from Canterbury.

It's happened so many times in this thread alone, people complaining that the Crusaders get away with stuff. Week after week Warriors fans complain their team is treated unfairly (Which, to be fair I agree has happened on a disappointing number of times).

tukapa1

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#3233762 23-May-2024 12:31

networkn: avoided what most people would believe was a clear yellow card

Who is most people? I've seen zero commentary that people thought there should have been a yellow card. Can't remember anybody else on this forum suggesting that either. I do admit I haven't run a scientific poll with a margin of error, but the bleating is usually loud so I expect I would have heard something if most people believed there should have been a yellow.

networkn: there is literally zero chance those clubs fans wouldn't be bitching and moaning,

The other clubs are used to these calls going against them, so it's just Crusaders fans getting a dose of reality now.

And on that, I thought Penney handled that muppet 'journalist' pretty well last night, right up until he was unclipping his microphone.

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#3233766 23-May-2024 12:46

tukapa1:

Who is most people? I've seen zero commentary that people thought there should have been a yellow card. Can't remember anybody else on this forum suggesting that either. I do admit I haven't run a scientific poll with a margin of error, but the bleating is usually loud so I expect I would have heard something if most people believed there should have been a yellow.

In every other season, contact of that nature would 100% have been a yellow card. Christ, I've seen Red given (stupidly) for similar or even less. Wasn't much made of it in this particular thread, but it was questioned a fair bit elsewhere.

The other clubs are used to these calls going against them, so it's just Crusaders fans getting a dose of reality now.

The Crusaders have had plenty of calls against them, the real difference, is that the Crusaders are the only team in NZ who get zero sympathy as a result. Here is a result that cost them a grand final.

https://www.planetrugby.com/joubert-apologises-to-crusaders

And on that, I thought Penney handled that muppet 'journalist' pretty well last night, right up until he was unclipping his microphone.

I don't think Colin Mansbridge should have apologised, the comment was not made to the reporter, it was made about the reporter, and he wasn't wrong.

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#3233810 23-May-2024 15:04

networkn: I don't think Colin Mansbridge should have apologised, the comment was not made to the reporter, it was made about the reporter, and he wasn't wrong.

I didn't know anybody had made an apology, but I can see why they would have wanted to because no matter how much of a prick the 'journalist' was Penney and the Crusaders are still role models to thousands of kids and should act that way at all times.

Think what you want in public, say what you want when you're in the van.

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#3233814 23-May-2024 15:24

Yeah, getting caught on a hot mike, is amateur hour stuff. Fozzy copped unbelievable grief over a number of years, but keep composed and dignified for pretty much all of it. Penney's body language in the coaches box on TV etc is hugely unhelpful to his team. I hate to blame the coach, and the 'saders have had a horrible run of injuries etc, but you have to question Penney's future with the franchise.

Lots of people in Auckland still haven't forgotten him calling for uncontested scrums in1990. They might want to listen to Princess Elsa on that one.

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#3233829 23-May-2024 15:33

networkn:

I don't think Colin Mansbridge should have apologised, the comment was not made to the reporter, it was made about the reporter, and he wasn't wrong.

I completely endorse this sentiment. It was a pretty accurate description in my opinion, although I would have liked Penney to have stared him in the eye and called him that directly.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3233856 23-May-2024 17:26

I didn't know anybody had made an apology, but I can see why they would have wanted to because no matter how much of a prick the 'journalist' was Penney and the Crusaders are still role models to thousands of kids and should act that way at all times.

Think what you want in public, say what you want when you're in the van.

Yeah, you are right, but it would have been nice to see the 'journalist' get just desserts. It's important for kids to see the consequences of being a prick.

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#3233861 23-May-2024 17:28

Dingbatt:

I completely endorse this sentiment. It was a pretty accurate description in my opinion, although I would have liked Penney to have stared him in the eye and called him that directly.

I have to agree that it's not great from a role model perspective, though I think my kids are smart enough that had they have seen the way that reporter behaved they would have expected some form of consequence to come from it too.

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#3233866 23-May-2024 17:39

Earbanean:

Yeah, getting caught on a hot mike, is amateur hour stuff. Fozzy copped unbelievable grief over a number of years, but keep composed and dignified for pretty much all of it. Penney's body language in the coaches box on TV etc is hugely unhelpful to his team. I hate to blame the coach, and the 'saders have had a horrible run of injuries etc, but you have to question Penney's future with the franchise.

Lots of people in Auckland still haven't forgotten him calling for uncontested scrums in1990. They might want to listen to Princess Elsa on that one.

The way Foster was treated makes me embarrassed to be a Kiwi, it was disgusting. No Coach (or in fact anyone doing a job) should be subjected to the type of vitriol they have directed at them. People spat at Foster.

Penney may be partially to blame, and I agree, his demeanour hasn't been the most inspiring after those losses, it's probably something he needs to work on.

Looking at it from his perspective he's been handed a pretty poor hand, and I can only imagine the pressure, and he is a human being after all. I believe it would be much fairer to judge him on a season with a mostly fit team.

Having said that, when Gatland coached the Chiefs and I didn't give him any slack, though at the very least, he had his first choice of players, mostly. On the other hand Jamie Joseph had very little success with the Highlanders, and Tony Brown was extremely underwhelming, and yet they are both respected and highly thought of coaches.

Earbanean

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#3233878 23-May-2024 18:39

Having said that, when Gatland coached the Chiefs and I didn't give him any slack, though at the very least, he had his first choice of players, mostly. On the other hand Jamie Joseph had very little success with the Highlanders, and Tony Brown was extremely underwhelming, and yet they are both respected and highly thought of coaches.

What are you talking about? The Highlanders won the 2015 Super Rugby title with Joseph as coach.

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#3233941 23-May-2024 19:55

Earbanean:

What are you talking about? The Highlanders won the 2015 Super Rugby title with Joseph as coach.

They won one title in 6 years in charge, and were mostly perennial under performers. They don't look that crash hot right now either.

Earbanean

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#3234062 24-May-2024 09:01

They won one title in 6 years in charge, and were mostly perennial under performers. They don't look that crash hot right now either.

What? There have been literally dozens of coaches who have tried and failed to win even a single super title, including the aforementioned Foster and Gatland. Joseph has actually won one, as well as winning the U20 World Cup and a number of tier 1 test scalps, including beating the Springboks in a World Cup. Or put this another way. How many Crusaders supporters right now are happy with Penney and wouldn't jump at a coach with the record of Jamie Joseph?

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#3234764 26-May-2024 12:13

Earbanean:

What? There have been literally dozens of coaches who have tried and failed to win even a single super title, including the aforementioned Foster and Gatland. Joseph has actually won one, as well as winning the U20 World Cup and a number of tier 1 test scalps, including beating the Springboks in a World Cup. Or put this another way. How many Crusaders supporters right now are happy with Penney and wouldn't jump at a coach with the record of Jamie Joseph?

I wouldn't want Joseph to coach the Crusaders. (Nor Brown, or Rennie). I am not sure about Penney, but as I have said a number of times, I don't believe the blame for the all the poor results lie with him and him alone (just as I believe that early results with Fosters AB's were more about his assistants, and the players). It's hard watching the Crusders lose, but there have been some fairly tight results with good teams, and some wins against good teams. There is actually a reasonable amount of good stuff happening, it's just not quite clicking all at once. Our kicking needs quite a bit of focus and our attack looks a bit confused, but our forwards are rolling up their sleeves. Our lineout is better, our scrum is close to the best in the competition and our loose forwards are starting to work well together. We are still missing quite a number of first choice players and some of those that are back look a bit under-done (expectedly).

Success is a double edged sword. It comes to be expected, taken for granted, and it prevents fans from being able to easily accept that for most teams, success comes and goes. Other teams, other countries, can improve, have better players in key positions.

I will note that some of Josephs success with Japan was other teams underestimating them. I am not saying he is a bad coach, but I don't think he is as good as what some people think he is. Just as I don't believe that Penney (or Jones) are as bad as most people think they are.

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#3235142 27-May-2024 09:55

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350290729/ex-all-blacks-lock-ross-filipo-named-coach-maori-all-blacks

I wasn't aware he was coaching.

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