Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

Forums › Sports › Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

1 | ... | 604 | 605 | 606 | 607 | 608 | 609 | 610 | 611 | 612 | 613 | 614 | ... | 640

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271208 13-Aug-2024 23:13

Geez, 10 changes for the Springboks against Australia and two fly halves (Libbok and Pollard) on a 5-3 bench. Rassie really just does whatever he thinks is best at the time.

Hatch

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Hatch (affiliate link).

Earbanean

916 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3271320 14-Aug-2024 09:29

Handle9:
We have a big balance issue without playing Tuipolotu, Barrett and Finau, Ardie is the only plus tight carrier in the forwards. It is arguably why Sotutu should have been in the squad to give a big carrier as an option in the loose forwards.

Yeah, that's sort of what I was on about above with the bit about our loosies not being right. If Tuipolotu is fit this week and they don't want to give Finau another shot, then I'd seriously look at Vai'i at blindside. So Darry and Patty at lock, and Vali'i at 6. Add bulk in the breakdown/carry and a third genuine lineout target.

Going forward, again if they're still against Finau, then maybe they should have another go at Barrett at 6. I'm not sure that's something they'll go for though, with the emphasis on a highly mobile game plan. They could bring Sotutu in later on, but he's not really a 6, so that means Ardie would have to move to 7, which they haven't wanted to do. I still think they'll get Frizzell back sooner than planned and keep Ardie at 8.

Wombat1

586 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#3271407 14-Aug-2024 13:57

Handle9: Geez, 10 changes for the Springboks against Australia and two fly halves (Libbok and Pollard) on a 5-3 bench. Rassie really just does whatever he thinks is best at the time.

its a winning formula if you ask me.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271455 14-Aug-2024 14:13

GV27:

Why are people so averse to the idea of calling up Sotutu? The excuse for not including him was work-rate, and I can't remember an All Blacks game with so few ruck-time tunrovers. At least we'd bolster our defensive capability by an order of magnitude.

Darry is the first of the new-brood that I'd say has really made a case for himself. He's sure as hell there more on merit than some of the established names, who have now failed to fire against three separate teams. First Game jitters doesn't wash anymore.

His lack of selection wasn't work rate, it's attitude.

He did himself no favours with his twitter post subsequent to non selection.

He was given the work on's. What he does with that, is entirely up to him.

It's like all the vitriol around Laumape being 'allowed' to go overseas. He was asked to work on specifics after being given a chance in Black, and opted not to.

Handle9

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271522 14-Aug-2024 15:21

networkn:
GV27:

Why are people so averse to the idea of calling up Sotutu? The excuse for not including him was work-rate, and I can't remember an All Blacks game with so few ruck-time tunrovers. At least we'd bolster our defensive capability by an order of magnitude.

Darry is the first of the new-brood that I'd say has really made a case for himself. He's sure as hell there more on merit than some of the established names, who have now failed to fire against three separate teams. First Game jitters doesn't wash anymore.

His lack of selection wasn't work rate, it's attitude.

He did himself no favours with his twitter post subsequent to non selection.

He was given the work on's. What he does with that, is entirely up to him.

It's like all the vitriol around Laumape being 'allowed' to go overseas. He was asked to work on specifics after being given a chance in Black, and opted not to.

Has he? Are you watching him train?

If you’re going to make accusations about a players character you should have absolute evidence.

There appears to be a relationship breakdown between him and Ryan, what that is and why I don’t know.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271533 14-Aug-2024 16:14

Handle9:

Has he? Are you watching him train?

If you’re going to make accusations about a players character you should have absolute evidence.

There appears to be a relationship breakdown between him and Ryan, what that is and why I don’t know.

It was mentioned by coaches when questioned why he didn't make selection that he had chosen not to take the call about that, and they were disappointed, but they had given him some clear direction to work on.

I also read that there had been a break down with Ryan. I'd also read there had been friction with him and another coach previously.

Add to that his social media post, it paints a picture.

For the record, I have no issue with him being selected, if he's what the coaches want. I have nothing against him. I suspect he is next cab off the rank, was slightly unfortunate not to have been selected and believe he will be given another chance later in the season.

Handle9

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271613 14-Aug-2024 19:07

Throwing Sotutu under the bus publicly was crap from Foster. He’s going to be far from the first player to react negatively to being selected.

The question is whether they have gotten the mix right and whether they can get the best out of players who are from other provinces and with different personalities. The players don’t look to really either understand or trust their roles yet. That might be time in the saddle, it might be that they can’t implement the plan or it might be the plan doesn’t work at this level.

I’m not sure they have the mix right. They have painted themselves into a corner by not having a more varied mix of forwards and we’ll see with the selections this weekend whether they can adapt or really have confidence in some of their selections like Bell and Hotham.

If Riccitelli had been selected I think he would almost certainly play this weekend for his carrying and throwing. Bell has similar problems to Aumua at lineout and is very green, as is Hotham.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271624 14-Aug-2024 20:05

Handle9: Throwing Sotutu under the bus publicly was crap from Foster. He’s going to be far from the first player to react negatively to being selected.

There's negative and negative. Sotutu's post was crap. If it's having a problem with his coaches, he isn't going to improve that with that sort of nonsense.

It's the second time he's refused to take a 'no' call. Shows fairly consistent poor attitude over two coaching groups.

The question is whether they have gotten the mix right and whether they can get the best out of players who are from other provinces and with different personalities. The players don’t look to really either understand or trust their roles yet. That might be time in the saddle, it might be that they can’t implement the plan or it might be the plan doesn’t work at this level.

I’m not sure they have the mix right. They have painted themselves into a corner by not having a more varied mix of forwards and we’ll see with the selections this weekend whether they can adapt or really have confidence in some of their selections like Bell and Hotham.

If Riccitelli had been selected I think he would almost certainly play this weekend for his carrying and throwing. Bell has similar problems to Aumua at lineout and is very green, as is Hotham.

Many people don't seem to get that it's not just a matter of gluing 23 players who are good together and getting a grreat result.

It's also very very early in the cycle and there are going to be missteps and experiments and attempts to find new combinations, and that should be OK, though it rarely is accepted by a NZ public spoilt in recent times by having unicorn teams.

IMO NZ has tended to rush players into the AB's and burn them out, simply because they have a good season. Plummer has played well this year, but he's had many years of being somewhere between average and good, with little consistency.

I am very glad we aren't facing SA at Eden Park this week.

Handle9

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271631 14-Aug-2024 20:32

networkn:

Handle9: Throwing Sotutu under the bus publicly was crap from Foster. He’s going to be far from the first player to react negatively to being selected.

There's negative and negative. Sotutu's post was crap. If it's having a problem with his coaches, he isn't going to improve that with that sort of nonsense.

It's the second time he's refused to take a 'no' call. Shows fairly consistent poor attitude over two coaching groups.

If he's been dropped and then publicly thrown under the bus by the forwards coach then it's unsurprising he's convinced he's not going to get picked and is having a say.

The public comments by Foster and Ryan far worse than his social media post. They have a duty of care to the player as the employer and coaching team. I view this as equivalent to NZR publicly undermining Foster last year. If you are in a position of power you do not publicly humiliate your people.

Handle9

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271632 14-Aug-2024 20:38

Also you've said that there were two phone calls not being taken. Have you got a source for that? Robertson said publicly that he talked to Sotutu prior to selection this year.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271649 14-Aug-2024 21:50

Handle9:

The public comments by Foster and Ryan far worse than his social media post. They have a duty of care to the player as the employer and coaching team. I view this as equivalent to NZR publicly undermining Foster last year. If you are in a position of power you do not publicly humiliate your people.

Equivalent? No, that's a ridiculous thing to suggest.

If a coach see's two players with similar qualities and potential, and one is more coachable than the other, it's pretty reasonable for them to take the player they think they can get more out of.

If on top of that, the player has a tantrum in a public forum, you can bet that hasn't helped his case. Having said that, Ryan is pretty plain and straight, if Sotutu is ready when his opportunity comes up, he'll get his chance.

No, I don't recall where I saw there had been two cases of him not answering calls, but it was definitely mentioned in one of the MSM outlets.

Handle9

11241 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271652 14-Aug-2024 22:07

networkn:

No, I don't recall where I saw there had been two cases of him not answering calls, but it was definitely mentioned in one of the MSM outlets.

Unless I see evidence to the contrary I don't believe it happened. It has been widely reported that Robertson said he had talked to Sotutu and described him as "a hell of a player" and then pivoted to Sititis strengths. Regardless of their private sentiments that is the right way to handle a non-selection.

All coaches have their pets and guys who can't get a look in even when they probably should. That's just how it goes. If their team is successful they can say they were right, if they aren't they justifiably get questioned whether they are doing the right thing. That's how accountability works. They don't get a pass for failures and only lauded for successes. If they are Ian Foster they get blamed for failures and someone else gets credit for their successes but that's another story.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271656 14-Aug-2024 22:38

Handle9:

Unless I see evidence to the contrary I don't believe it happened. It has been widely reported that Robertson said he had talked to Sotutu and described him as "a hell of a player" and then pivoted to Sititis strengths. Regardless of their private sentiments that is the right way to handle a non-selection.

All coaches have their pets and guys who can't get a look in even when they probably should. That's just how it goes. If their team is successful they can say they were right, if they aren't they justifiably get questioned whether they are doing the right thing. That's how accountability works. They don't get a pass for failures and only lauded for successes. If they are Ian Foster they get blamed for failures and someone else gets credit for their successes but that's another story.

Shrugs.

Robertson has proven himself ruthless in a good way on many occasions, things like denying Wyatt Crockett an opportunity to play the SR Final, despite it being his swan song, and seems pretty happy to tell players they aren't meeting the expected standard, and demoting them, but he's always been fair in my eyes with giving people reasonable chance to redeem themselves and more than a single chance to prove they are ready for a step up.

I'll be interested to see what selections are made tomorrow.

I imagine the meetings early this week with the team would have been pretty uncomfortable. Coaches and Players would have been given a pretty thorough examination.

Personally, I think there is too much being given to the players to focus on. There were a number of times players looked hesitant and or unsure.

Earbanean

916 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3271887 15-Aug-2024 10:02

Putting aside, for now, discussion about who should have made the wider squad, I've been thinking about today's selection. Probably not what Razor will do, but if it it were me:

4 Tuipolotu
6 Vaii'i
7 Cane
9 Ratima
11 Clarke
14 Tele'a
15 Jordan

20 Blackadder
21 Hotham
22 B Barrett
23 Ioane

All other positions unchanged. However, I would seriously consider Williams and/or Tosi as reserve props and maybe Jacobsen at 20. Assumes Tuipolotu is fit, which I don't know. If not, then I guess Finau at 6.

networkn

Networkn
32236 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3271952 15-Aug-2024 11:04

1. Tamaiti Williams (8)
2. Codie Taylor (88) (Vice Captain)
3. Tyrel Lomax (35)
4. Tupou Vaa’i (29)
5. Sam Darry (2)
6. Ethan Blackadder (12)
7. Dalton Papali’i (35)
8. Ardie Savea (85) (Captain)
9. TJ Perenara (83)
10. Damian McKenzie (51)
11. Caleb Clarke (21)
12. Jordie Barrett (61) (Vice Captain)
13. Rieko Ioane (72)
14. Will Jordan (32)
15. Beauden Barrett (127)

16. Asafo Aumua (10)
17. Ofa Tu’ungafasi (60)
18. Fletcher Newell (17)
19. Josh Lord (5)
20. Sam Cane (95)
21. Cortez Ratima (3)
22. Anton Lienert-Brown (74)
23. Mark Tele’a (12)

Unavailable due to injury: Ethan de Groot (neck). Scott Barrett (finger surgery), Patrick Tuipulotu (calf), Stephen Perofeta (calf), Luke Jacobson (hamstring).

1 | ... | 604 | 605 | 606 | 607 | 608 | 609 | 610 | 611 | 612 | 613 | 614 | ... | 640