Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#3278599 3-Sep-2024 16:57

itxtme:

You averaged the caps like some nimwit that believes someone having a high number of caps means the person with low gets that experience, I am assuming via osmosis?

Cool story. I still haven't seen where I said there were no new players since 2023. I'm still waiting.

You are calling me names because you can't backup your assertion that this is an inexperienced team. I've quantified that it's an experienced team in a number of ways, you've produced, let me check, oh yes, zero evidence that this is an inexperienced team.

Compared to their peers, historical measurements and any other objective measure this is an experienced playing group. As I wrote originally there are some inexperienced players, which is far from unusual. Every team has inexperienced players, especially in the first year after a world cup.

Yes there have been experienced players leave or been left out. That is the same for every other team. That's how it goes and crying inexperience isn't an excuse for this team.

GV27

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#3278601 3-Sep-2024 17:21

Handle9:

Yes there have been experienced players leave or been left out. That is the same for every other team. That's how it goes and crying inexperience isn't an excuse for this team.

Maybe if they wanted players that were experienced at winning they should have picked more Blues players...

GV27

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#3278602 3-Sep-2024 17:21

(sorry couldn't resist)

Handle9

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#3278607 3-Sep-2024 17:37

GV27:
(sorry couldn't resist)

Lol. This bit is getting so repetitive that the repetition its self is funny even if someone didn’t bite every time.

Wakrak

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#3278609 3-Sep-2024 18:24

Big fan of the South Africa rugby channels. The Verdict for example.

networkn

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#3278611 3-Sep-2024 18:27

Handle9:

We had an average number of caps of 44. Are you seriously calling a player with 44 caps inexperienced?

I get the argument you are trying to make, but it doesn't work out like that practically.

If you have a player with 10 caps and one with 50 caps, you'd average that as 30 caps, but that is not as experienced as 2 players with 30 caps each, or would you (I hope) expect the same level of performance.

Caps also doesn't take into account how many minutes played. I am sure Stephen Perofeta might agree after getting 10 minutes in his first game. It also matters the quality of opposition players have faced.

It's not reasonable to factor all of those in to determine the exact comparison, but I don't think any sane person is claiming the AB's Squad are as experienced as the current Boks Squad. Factor into the equation new coaches, new support staff, basically an entirely new management structure, some stuff is going to take time to bed in. People should set themselves some reasonable expectations. Continuity has some actual real value.

Having said that, I think the current team is not doing some basics well, and that doesn't feel like an experience issue to me, but it also feels like it's relatively easily fixed.

Either way, fans need to be patient and set reasonable expectations, it's exceptionally early in the 4 year cycle.

I have reasonable confidence we should be OK this cycle based even on what we are seeing now.

tukapa1

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#3278613 3-Sep-2024 18:34

itxtme:

You live on another planet sometimes. You can run an average to support any stance you wish to take. Saying we don't have new All Blacks compared to RWC 2023 is so strange I don't know how to discuss further with you.

Reserves

12, 62, 19, 2, 4, 5, 76, 14

But yes 44 is a good indicator

Not sure of your point here? Is it that the AB's had a less experienced bench than the Boks? If so then correct. Boks bench 69, 4, 54, 22, 6, 45, 13, 73.

But that kinda reverses itself when you look at the starting 15 - AB's had 885 caps compared with the Boks having 632 caps. AB's don't look so inexperienced now. In fact both squads had 8 players each with less than 20 caps.

Doesn't matter how you look at those figures you can't claim the AB's are inexperienced. 15 of the AB's squad have played at least one World Cup final. Can't even say the AB's had the least experienced player on the field - that was Ruan Nortje.

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Handle9

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#3278643 3-Sep-2024 20:13

networkn:

It's not reasonable to factor all of those in to determine the exact comparison, but I don't think any sane person is claiming the AB's Squad are as experienced as the current Boks Squad.

The team that played on Saturday was considerably more experienced than the Springboks squad, especially in the game driver positions.

Weise, Reinach, SFM and Fassi have played less tests than Perenara alone. Every game driver for the All Blacks has played 50 tests or more. They are extremely experienced. They may not be better but they are experienced.

Go through the position groupings and you will see that the All Blacks were more experience at Loose Forward, Halves, Fullback and Wings. The midfield was a push (both are really experienced individually and as a combination), the Springboks had more experience in the front row and lock, although PSDT makes that a bit deceptive.

The All Blacks starting lineup was very experienced, their bench less experienced. The Springboks were the other way around.

Let's do another exercise. What is the international team that has more playing experience than the All Blacks? Maybe Argentina?

The New Zealand team that played the world cup final was the most experienced team of all time. Some of those players are gone. That doesn't make this side inexperienced. It's worse but that's not really an experience issue. It's a quality issue.

Every team has inexperienced players. It's not unique to the All Blacks.

As I originally posted the coaching staff is the area where the All Blacks are extremely inexperienced. They are building a new program and, as I originally posted, that's going to take time.

itxtme

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#3278702 4-Sep-2024 09:48

tukapa1:

Not sure of your point here? Is it that the AB's had a less experienced bench than the Boks? If so then correct. Boks bench 69, 4, 54, 22, 6, 45, 13, 73.

But that kinda reverses itself when you look at the starting 15 - AB's had 885 caps compared with the Boks having 632 caps. AB's don't look so inexperienced now. In fact both squads had 8 players each with less than 20 caps.

Doesn't matter how you look at those figures you can't claim the AB's are inexperienced. 15 of the AB's squad have played at least one World Cup final. Can't even say the AB's had the least experienced player on the field - that was Ruan Nortje.

My point is 3rd form maths tells you that the number 44 has no correlation to 4, 22, 6 or 13. And as I have said repeatedly we are rebuilding. Big changes for our team - key here is "our team". The continuation of a coaching regime in South Africa has 0 effect on how our inexperienced players preform in our markedly changed coaching an tactical setup. Rebuilding is an investment and I am all in, I like where this team is heading.

Here is a good article for understanding the dangers of averages if anyone is still confused.

maoriboy

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#3278763 4-Sep-2024 11:18

networkn:

I can only assume you are trolling your hardest here.

You missed Whitelock. Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and Mo'unga are all players significantly better and more experienced than the players they have been replaced by.

He's actually correct as the starting 15 didn't include Whitelock, who came off the bench, with Retallick and S Barrett starting.

networkn

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#3278774 4-Sep-2024 11:52

maoriboy:

networkn:

I can only assume you are trolling your hardest here.

You missed Whitelock. Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and Mo'unga are all players significantly better and more experienced than the players they have been replaced by.

He's actually correct as the starting 15 didn't include Whitelock, who came off the bench, with Retallick and S Barrett starting.

Yeah, Missed the starting bit, but at the end of the day, the comment is true regardless of Whitelocks presence.

Handle9

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#3278843 4-Sep-2024 13:41

@itxtme I still haven't seen where I said there were no new players since 2023. I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said that.

itxtme

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#3278918 4-Sep-2024 15:50

Handle9: @itxtme I still haven't seen where I said there were no new players since 2023. I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said that.

And I haven't seen you reply about Sam Cane, or how your "maths" is not misleading. Thems the breaks

Fixed it for you

itxtme:

You live on another planet sometimes. You can run an average to support any stance you wish to take. ~~Saying~~ Insinuating we don't have new All Blacks compared to RWC 2023 is so strange I don't know how to discuss further with you.

Reserves

12, 62, 19, 2, 4, 5, 76, 14

But yes 44 is a good indicator

As a person you should really work on the idea that the world isn't Boolean. You cant always be a 1 bro

Handle9

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#3278933 4-Sep-2024 16:17

Lol. You just can’t help yourself but keep digging into a position which is stupid.

It’s funny.

tukapa1

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#3279057 4-Sep-2024 19:43

networkn:
maoriboy:

He's actually correct as the starting 15 didn't include Whitelock, who came off the bench, with Retallick and S Barrett starting.

Yeah, Missed the starting bit, but at the end of the day, the comment is true regardless of Whitelocks presence.

Apology accepted.

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