Geekzone Cycling Thread

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#3269484 8-Aug-2024 14:01

mudguard:

I would say this because it's attracting a demographic that can afford them. IE with minimal stereotyping, an e-bike (mountain bike) allows someone who previously was not able to participate to get out on trails. Now whether this is a good or a bad thing is still a furious debate.

You're average 16 year old isn't buying these.

I still think there are some things to keep an eye out. Drivetrain spec no longer matters, an e-bike will wear through high end stuff like no one's business. Manufacturers are aware of this and slowly changing, but you simply don't need the same range or light weight.

Motors and batteries. These are the bulk of the cost, and bike companies being bike companies, there is no guarantee of replacement if something goes wrong in 3-4 years. Then you're left with a very heavy push bike.

I was up at Woodhill last weekend and was shocked at how many younger riders were on eBikes. Whole families were on them, which completely blew me away.
But you're right - there are a lot of eBikers that are not terribly capable on a mountain bike and are up in parts of the forest they really shouldn't be, without the skillset or trail etiquette to deal with all that comes with it. But I try not to gatekeep, as it's a sport I love and want as many people involved in it as possible. I just want them all to use their noggins once in a while.

Re drivetrains - the vast majority of eBike manufacturers are now speccing Deore/SLX or NX/GX with cheaper Steel cassettes on their mid range bikes. XT and X01 etc are being reserved for the higher end, with good reason. I am actually OK with that as the steel cassettes are more durable and the few grams of extra weight mean nothing on a 25kg bike.

Motor-wise, I noticed that the Shimano motors are now available as an after-market purchase (assumedly to cover those that are out of warranty) and they start at about $1500 a piece. Then you add the other parts like controllers, batteries and BMS etc...madness. But I'd wager that a lot of bike manufacturers offer longer warranties as they have the power to hassle the suppliers into honouring their obligations beyond a couple of years (Merida for example, offer a lifetime warranty - which is expected to be 10 years).

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#3269485 8-Aug-2024 14:09

I think I've said this before but I've ridden an e-bike only once and will buy one in the near future after we move out of Auckland and sell our house. Even though I'm old (50) I'm perfectly capable of riding an analogue bike and still do regularly but you can't deny the fun factor of an ebike. For the same amount of effort I can be cruising along at 35km/h instead of 20km/h. Or more importantly climbing up a hill at 25km/h instead of 10km/h. I know someone who rides an ebike (60km round trip) to work 3-4 days a week. He keeps it on the lowest assist level and can just about keep up with traffic (Specialised so assist up to 45km/h not 32km/h). He's in his 60's and as fit as a fiddle so you can still get good exercise on one if that's what you want. You just travel further in the same amount of time.

I don't think I could justify one in Europe however with their 25km/h maximum assist speed. I'm surprised anyone is buying them there outside of cargo bikes in the likes of the Netherlands?

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#3269494 8-Aug-2024 14:30

mudguard:

I would say this because it's attracting a demographic that can afford them. IE with minimal stereotyping, an e-bike (mountain bike) allows someone who previously was not able to participate to get out on trails. Now whether this is a good or a bad thing is still a furious debate.

You're average 16 year old isn't buying these.

I still think there are some things to keep an eye out. Drivetrain spec no longer matters, an e-bike will wear through high end stuff like no one's business. Manufacturers are aware of this and slowly changing, but you simply don't need the same range or light weight.

Motors and batteries. These are the bulk of the cost, and bike companies being bike companies, there is no guarantee of replacement if something goes wrong in 3-4 years. Then you're left with a very heavy push bike.

Couple of points, the one thing Ebikes have done is drag the whole MTB sector up in price. Just to point a simple one out, why on earth would you buy this Trek Slash 9.9AXS

https://www.trekbikes.com/nz/en_NZ/bikes/mountain-bikes/trail-mountain-bikes/slash/slash-9-9-xx-axs-t-type-gen-6/p/41689/?colorCode=greenlight

When you could buy this?

https://www.trekbikes.com/nz/en_NZ/bikes/mountain-bikes/electric-mountain-bikes/slash/slash-9-9-x0-axs-t-type/p/47097/?colorCode=orange

The fact that one has a 580wh battery, a motor and display yet the are the same RRP is insane to me.

On the drivetrain usage, yes they will wear more than an analogue bike, 3,000km on my full 12speed XT groupset and all I've replaced is an $80 chain in 2.5 years. 3-4 years is laughable, as more and more bikes sell the spare parts and service sector follows. Bosch (my brand of choice) has its own NZ dedicated service centre here in Chch.

Regardless, your always going to have people unhappy with them.

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#3269498 8-Aug-2024 14:51

JPNZ:

Couple of points, the one thing Ebikes have done is drag the whole MTB sector up in price. Just to point a simple one out, why on earth would you buy this Trek Slash 9.9AXS

https://www.trekbikes.com/nz/en_NZ/bikes/mountain-bikes/trail-mountain-bikes/slash/slash-9-9-xx-axs-t-type-gen-6/p/41689/?colorCode=greenlight

When you could buy this?

https://www.trekbikes.com/nz/en_NZ/bikes/mountain-bikes/electric-mountain-bikes/slash/slash-9-9-x0-axs-t-type/p/47097/?colorCode=orange

The fact that one has a 580wh battery, a motor and display yet the are the same RRP is insane to me.

On the drivetrain usage, yes they will wear more than an analogue bike, 3,000km on my full 12speed XT groupset and all I've replaced is an $80 chain in 2.5 years. 3-4 years is laughable, as more and more bikes sell the spare parts and service sector follows. Bosch (my brand of choice) has its own NZ dedicated service centre here in Chch.

As I mentioned, if you don't intend to travel with the e-bike then it's great 'value' on the one hand. I still view them as different activities. The Merida linked is cheaper than the pushbike I just bought (though it has subsequently plummeted in price). But I guess another way to look at the two Treks, is what will they be worth in five years time?

My oldest mountainbike is from 1999. I can still get drivetrain bits for it! And tyres! Will we have twenty year old e-bikes in sheds? Maybe, who knows, will they be like an old phone or tablet that gets put away when it's too slow.

That said, I could get a really nice trail bike (Commencal) for less than what I paid for my last new bike in 2014 without taking inflation into account. So prices have been stable, I think it's more the higher end, has got higher.

Handsomedan:

There are a lot of eBikers that are not terribly capable on a mountain bike and are up in parts of the forest they really shouldn't be, without the skillset or trail etiquette to deal with all that comes with it. But I try not to gatekeep, as it's a sport I love and want as many people involved in it as possible. I just want them all to use their noggins once in a while.

Yeah this is the hard part, and the way trails have been managed in the past is partly to blame. Once upon a time the black or grade 5 trails were built in the middle of nowhere, or up big climbs so only the very fit, experienced or stubborn could get to them. And of course the only way down was a black. Now you don't have that protective mechanism. That said, it could be mitigated with signage.

Etiquette vs gate keeping is a very delicate balance. About a month ago I was waiting to drop into a trail at Woodhill. My partner and I were giving the riders in front 30s or so, so nice big gaps so everyone can go flat out (descent). And group after group roll past, straight into the trail without realising there were half a dozen riders queued to drop in. Now that's not an e-bike specific thing, but it's a natural resting point after a climb so plenty stop for a breather, which of course you don't necessarily need if you're on a e-bike. Release Valve for those familiar.

mudguard

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#3269500 8-Aug-2024 14:53

JPNZ:

On the drivetrain usage, yes they will wear more than an analogue bike, 3,000km on my full 12speed XT groupset and all I've replaced is an $80 chain in 2.5 years.

That's good mileage out of a chain. I use three and rotate. I got 1000km out of my previous chain with no stretch and should get similar out of the next ones.

It's the cassette I'm trying to eek out. SRAMs high end stuff is extortionate.

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#3269516 8-Aug-2024 15:24

mudguard:

Etiquette vs gate keeping is a very delicate balance. About a month ago I was waiting to drop into a trail at Woodhill. My partner and I were giving the riders in front 30s or so, so nice big gaps so everyone can go flat out (descent). And group after group roll past, straight into the trail without realising there were half a dozen riders queued to drop in. Now that's not an e-bike specific thing, but it's a natural resting point after a climb so plenty stop for a breather, which of course you don't necessarily need if you're on a e-bike. Release Valve for those familiar.

At least Release Valve and Off the Grid are out back. Vast majority of riders don't make it out to Map station 3, let alone Map station 4.

How Good and Chicken Run are two of the worst for people just dropping in on those waiting. And families clustering on blind turns or around trailheads are a shocker on nice days at Woodhill too.

If I do eventually end up with the eBike I look forward to a summer in the Riverhead Forest trails rather than battling the crowds at Woodhill.

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#3269517 8-Aug-2024 15:25

mudguard:

JPNZ:

On the drivetrain usage, yes they will wear more than an analogue bike, 3,000km on my full 12speed XT groupset and all I've replaced is an $80 chain in 2.5 years.

That's good mileage out of a chain. I use three and rotate. I got 1000km out of my previous chain with no stretch and should get similar out of the next ones.

It's the cassette I'm trying to eek out. SRAMs high end stuff is extortionate.

My son's XX1 SRAM cassette is worth more than my entire XT drivetrain!

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#3269525 8-Aug-2024 15:45

Handsomedan:

How Good and Chicke Run are two of the worst for people just dropping in on those waiting. And families clustering on blind turns or around trailheads are a shocker on nice days at Woodhill too.

If I do eventually end up with the eBike I look forward to a summer in the Riverhead Forest trails rather than battling the crowds at Woodhill.

Believe me, down here at Chch adventure park its terrible. On just one blue run last weekend, I nearly hit 3 groups of young groms with their bikes parked all over the trail stopping and looking at features. Part of the reason I got my Rail was to get out in the back country valleys and away from crowds of people.

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mudguard

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#3269533 8-Aug-2024 16:10

JPNZ:

Handsomedan:

And families clustering on blind turns or around trailheads are a shocker on nice days at Woodhill too.

Believe me, down here at Chch adventure park its terrible. On just one blue run last weekend, I nearly hit 3 groups of young groms with their bikes parked all over the trail stopping and looking at features. Part of the reason I got my Rail was to get out in the back country valleys and away from crowds of people.

Yeah it's tricky. Believe me, I'm not trying to make this an e-bike thing, new riders are new riders. When I come across people blocking the trail, I do a big lock up and song and dance about trying to stop in time. IE make it obvious it's not a good place to stop and then say oops, how's it going.

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#3269667 9-Aug-2024 09:04

mudguard:

Yeah it's tricky. Believe me, I'm not trying to make this an e-bike thing, new riders are new riders. When I come across people blocking the trail, I do a big lock up and song and dance about trying to stop in time. IE make it obvious it's not a good place to stop and then say oops, how's it going.

One of the worst groups to me are the well-heeled groms.
The kids with really expensive bikes and (quite often) plenty of skill.
You see them cluster at jump features or at Bike Parks on the gnarliest trails.
They're often quite arrogant (as they are rarely told no my mummy and daddy - or the nanny) and they don't like to be asked to move from blocking a trail or a feature - they are usually a quite entitled bunch.

There's often a bunch of them at How Good & the Airfield at Woodhill and there are also a bunch that you find at both 440 in Auckland and at Skyline in Rotorua.
I came across less of them in Queenstown, but that's probably because they are spread over a far larger geographical area.

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#3269668 9-Aug-2024 09:06

Anyway - back to actual cycling.
Great to see the Track cyclists doing what NZ Track Cyclists do...winning medals and posting fast times.

So good to see these events every few years and be reminded of how phenominally quick these people are!

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#3270737 12-Aug-2024 10:12

And we've had more medals at the Velodrome over the weekend - Ellesse Andrews has become the new Sarah Ulmer, while the team as a whole are simply brilliant!
Not only getting medals, but those who are outside the medals being insanely competitive.

Brilliant work by the cycling team this Olympics.

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#3270880 12-Aug-2024 17:06

I have recently got back into cycling for fitness and am so frustrated by the state of the road shoulders in NZ (often potholed or crumbling or loose deep chip), and that is if there are shoulders. And also the bad attitude of some drivers who speed past without giving much room. Also some NZ drivers have really bad attitudes to cyclists. Some have said to me that cyclists should be paying for cycle lanes / shoulders if they want them, not thinking that cyclists are also taxpayers. Also every cycle reduces congestion on the roads, and cycling and walking cause every little wear on the roads, unlike cars and trucks. Also do pedestrians pay for footpaths... yes they do through rates and taxes. Some parts of Europe put NZs cycle infrastructure to shame.

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#3270882 12-Aug-2024 17:15

This is one of the reasons I mountain bike and avoid roads as much as I can.

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#3270883 12-Aug-2024 17:15

Senecio:

I think I've said this before but I've ridden an e-bike only once and will buy one in the near future after we move out of Auckland and sell our house. Even though I'm old (50) I'm perfectly capable of riding an analogue bike and still do regularly but you can't deny the fun factor of an ebike. For the same amount of effort I can be cruising along at 35km/h instead of 20km/h. Or more importantly climbing up a hill at 25km/h instead of 10km/h. I know someone who rides an ebike (60km round trip) to work 3-4 days a week. He keeps it on the lowest assist level and can just about keep up with traffic (Specialised so assist up to 45km/h not 32km/h). He's in his 60's and as fit as a fiddle so you can still get good exercise on one if that's what you want. You just travel further in the same amount of time.

I don't think I could justify one in Europe however with their 25km/h maximum assist speed. I'm surprised anyone is buying them there outside of cargo bikes in the likes of the Netherlands?

My issue with ebikes is ongoing cost and how long it will actually last and be able to get parts for it. They are have a high capital cost to buy in NZ. Also carrying around a lot of extra weight if not using it as a ebike, so need to put in more effort when cycling. If using it for commuting then I think they make sense, but not so much if one is just buying it for fitness.

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