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  #2205959 27-Mar-2019 22:40
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gzt: High hazard system no redundancy killed people.


I'm not sure I'd call it a high hazard system, however no matter what level of hazard you assign to it, the system on its own didn't cause the crash. It was one of several factors. The last line of defence (the flight crew) should have prevented this accident. The fact they weren't able to, especially in the Ethiopian crash, is very concerning.There has to be some focus on this.

Right now the two airlines involved are keen to deflect any cupability away from themselves or the (in)actions of their crew.




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  #2205960 27-Mar-2019 22:43
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amiga500:

Boeing seem so keen to out-source key components to other countries in some of their aircraft.  This went big with the 777 programme.  Much of the wing being made in Japan & the vertical part of the tail made in Australia.  The problems these decisions caused Boeing are all covered in some detail in the documentary about the making of the 777.  (This documentary may still be on Youtube.)


I guess they do this to influence Governments and airlines to purchase Boeing rather than Airbus but it must make their programmes harder to control.



Aircraft comonents (I think flaps) were made for Boeing here in New Zealand quite a few years ago. Outsourcing isn't new. Airbus do the same.




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  #2206047 28-Mar-2019 07:23
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amiga500:

 

Boeing seem so keen to out-source key components to other countries in some of their aircraft.  This went big with the 777 programme.  Much of the wing being made in Japan & the vertical part of the tail made in Australia.  The problems these decisions caused Boeing are all covered in some detail in the documentary about the making of the 777.  (This documentary may still be on Youtube.)

 

I guess they do this to influence Governments and airlines to purchase Boeing rather than Airbus but it must make their programmes harder to control.

 

 

Your last sentence shows a total lack of understanding of the aircraft business. 

 

You've just described how Boeing and Airbus have both operated for the last 20 odd years. Both heavily outsource component production and their just in time production lines are there to assemble the final product from components manufactured across the world.

 

There are no fundamental "problems" with this model and without it there is no way either would have been able to ramp up to build and deliver the number of commercial that they have both delivered over the past 15 or so years - a period in which more commercial aircraft have been produced than the total built in the prior 100 or so years since man first flew.

 

If you believe this production is a negative you seriously need to read more about it to understand why it's the exact opposite.

 

 

 

 


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  #2206341 28-Mar-2019 15:04
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sbiddle:

 

amiga500:

 

Boeing seem so keen to out-source key components to other countries in some of their aircraft.  This went big with the 777 programme.  Much of the wing being made in Japan & the vertical part of the tail made in Australia.  The problems these decisions caused Boeing are all covered in some detail in the documentary about the making of the 777.  (This documentary may still be on Youtube.)

 

I guess they do this to influence Governments and airlines to purchase Boeing rather than Airbus but it must make their programmes harder to control.

 

 

Your last sentence shows a total lack of understanding of the aircraft business. 

 

You've just described how Boeing and Airbus have both operated for the last 20 odd years. Both heavily outsource component production and their just in time production lines are there to assemble the final product from components manufactured across the world.

 

There are no fundamental "problems" with this model and without it there is no way either would have been able to ramp up to build and deliver the number of commercial that they have both delivered over the past 15 or so years - a period in which more commercial aircraft have been produced than the total built in the prior 100 or so years since man first flew.

 

If you believe this production is a negative you seriously need to read more about it to understand why it's the exact opposite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you ever watched the making of the B777 documentary?   In that documentary it said that allowing the wing to be made in Japan was controversial but helped secure orders of the aircraft from Japan.  The documentary also stated that the B777 had more outsourcing than any other Boeing aircraft.

 

The making of wing components in Japan caused some very serious problems for Boeing.  So serious that top management including a Boeing VP, made a special trip to the manufacturer to try to get quality problems resolved.   This visit was a success & the company involved solved their quality issues.  (Unlike the shoddy parts delivered to Boeing from USA manufacturers - covered in some detail in the Aljazeera 787 documentary.  Also worth a watch.)

 

When I say out-source I meant out-source to another country not to other manufacturers in the USA. 

 

The documentary on the 777 is really worth a watch as it gives a very comprehensive understanding of the manufacturing process and the politics involved.


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  #2206399 28-Mar-2019 16:07
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amiga500:

 

The making of wing components in Japan caused some very serious problems for Boeing.  So serious that top management including a Boeing VP, made a special trip to the manufacturer to try to get quality problems resolved.   This visit was a success & the company involved solved their quality issues.  (Unlike the shoddy parts delivered to Boeing from USA manufacturers - covered in some detail in the Aljazeera 787 documentary.  Also worth a watch.)

 

 

The Harvard Business Review touches on Boeing's issues with 'demodularization' in a 2012 article about the export - or outsourcing- of manufacturing and the outcome of passing that 'production' knowledge to other countries.

A recent IMI article (in the Asia Times) discusses both Airbus & Boeing's plans to assemble aircraft in China, and the risks of that technology transfer.


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  #2206403 28-Mar-2019 16:19
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Sidestep:

 

amiga500:

 

The making of wing components in Japan caused some very serious problems for Boeing.  So serious that top management including a Boeing VP, made a special trip to the manufacturer to try to get quality problems resolved.   This visit was a success & the company involved solved their quality issues.  (Unlike the shoddy parts delivered to Boeing from USA manufacturers - covered in some detail in the Aljazeera 787 documentary.  Also worth a watch.)

 

 

The Harvard Business Review touches on Boeing's issues with 'demodularization' in a 2012 article about the export - or outsourcing- of manufacturing and the outcome of passing that 'production' knowledge to other countries.

A recent IMI article (in the Asia Times) discusses both Airbus & Boeing's plans to assemble aircraft in China, and the risks of that technology transfer.

 

 

It's a while since I watched the 777 documentary, but the controversy about the wing being made in Japan was about similar issues.   Many thought that this would give away too many secrets about state of the art wing design and manufacture.


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  #2206414 28-Mar-2019 16:34
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amiga500:

Have you ever watched the making of the B777 documentary?   In that documentary it said that allowing the wing to be made in Japan was controversial but helped secure orders of the aircraft from Japan.  The documentary also stated that the B777 had more outsourcing than any other Boeing aircraft.


The making of wing components in Japan caused some very serious problems for Boeing.  So serious that top management including a Boeing VP, made a special trip to the manufacturer to try to get quality problems resolved.   This visit was a success & the company involved solved their quality issues.  (Unlike the shoddy parts delivered to Boeing from USA manufacturers - covered in some detail in the Aljazeera 787 documentary.  Also worth a watch.)


When I say out-source I meant out-source to another country not to other manufacturers in the USA. 


The documentary on the 777 is really worth a watch as it gives a very comprehensive understanding of the manufacturing process and the politics involved.



I'm not making a case either way for outsourcing, but I think you'll find it's no different to Airbus nor other industries. The automotive industry has been doing it for many many years.

There were some well known cock ups on the 787 from memory, they were all part of starting out down the track Boeing took to produce parts in various factories around the word. Some of the problems being the difference in measurements due to imperial and metric. Those issues have been solved, and until you encounter some of them you don't realise they need to be solved.


If someone was to bother making a documentary on say Airbus, I'm sure they could find parallel examples. To focus on Boeing is being rather one eyed in my opinion.




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gzt

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  #2206444 28-Mar-2019 17:45
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Technofreak:
gzt: High hazard system no redundancy killed people.


I'm not sure I'd call it a high hazard system, however no matter what level of hazard you assign to it, the system on its own didn't cause the crash. It was one of several factors. The last line of defence (the flight crew) should have prevented this accident. The fact they weren't able to, especially in the Ethiopian crash, is very concerning.There has to be some focus on this.

Right now the two airlines involved are keen to deflect any cupability away from themselves or the (in)actions of their crew.

That's how FAA defines it according to the linked article.

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  #2207754 30-Mar-2019 17:16
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Why was there so much pressure to have the 737MAX 'fly just the same' as the previous version?

 

"WSJ reporting that the SWA  contract for the MAX had a penalty of USD 1 million per aircraft if ‘additional training’ (undefined) was required to fly it, and that they bought 280 aircraft" according to https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619272-ethiopian-airliner-down-africa-137.html#post10433058

 

$US280M accounts for a lot of pressure


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  #2207807 30-Mar-2019 20:09
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One of the problems Boeing has is that just about every potential passenger going on a 737 Max, thinks they know something about 'software upgrades' & will immediately make a connection between that and Windows 7 and Windows 10 updates.   Level of confidence will not be high!

 

People in retail will think of the last time their till software got upgraded and maybe had a horrible few days.

 

It's going to take years before people trust the 737 Max.




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  #2207861 30-Mar-2019 21:57
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amiga500:

 

One of the problems Boeing has is that just about every potential passenger going on a 737 Max, thinks they know something about 'software upgrades' & will immediately make a connection between that and Windows 7 and Windows 10 updates.   Level of confidence will not be high!

 

People in retail will think of the last time their till software got upgraded and maybe had a horrible few days.

 

It's going to take years before people trust the 737 Max.

 

 

Luckily I read somewhere that PC is a dying breed with poor uptake and all ... should be fine.

 

iOS updates however ....





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #2207976 31-Mar-2019 00:36
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amiga500:

One of the problems Boeing has is that just about every potential passenger going on a 737 Max, thinks they know something about 'software upgrades' & will immediately make a connection between that and Windows 7 and Windows 10 updates.   Level of confidence will not be high!


People in retail will think of the last time their till software got upgraded and maybe had a horrible few days.


It's going to take years before people trust the 737 Max.



No it won't take years at all. Most people have no idea what sort of aircraft they're getting onto. Within 6 to 12 months this will have blown over.

You keep focussing on the aircraft failings. There are much bigger failings in other areas that need addressing and if they had been addressed these accidents would have just been incidents with no loss of life.




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  #2208067 31-Mar-2019 09:56
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The DC-10 groundings and the impact it had for years afterwards, Boeing has gone from 787 battery fires to 787 engine problems to 737 Max groundings. Public confidence in their aircraft in general will take a while to bounce back





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  #2208081 31-Mar-2019 10:42
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Beccara:

 

The DC-10 groundings and the impact it had for years afterwards, Boeing has gone from 787 battery fires to 787 engine problems to 737 Max groundings. Public confidence in their aircraft in general will take a while to bounce back

 

 

And there were battery experts saying that Boeing's choice of lithium battery type for the B787 bordered on being reckless..  (Aljazeera Documentary on the B787)


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  #2208088 31-Mar-2019 11:24
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amiga500:

 

Beccara:

 

The DC-10 groundings and the impact it had for years afterwards, Boeing has gone from 787 battery fires to 787 engine problems to 737 Max groundings. Public confidence in their aircraft in general will take a while to bounce back

 

 

And there were battery experts saying that Boeing's choice of lithium battery type for the B787 bordered on being reckless..  (Aljazeera Documentary on the B787)

 

 

I hope those people don't fly on the A350 with its lithium batteries.

 

 


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