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1521 posts

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  #1069735 20-Jun-2014 09:14
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geekiegeek: Has anyone stopped to think what our government and country would be like if this motley crew actually managed to get into power? 


There is a less than zero chance of them getting into power. They have a chance of getting a seat or two in parliament IF everything goes entirely their way.

In my opinion, they are a cut above the average one-trick-pony party like Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis and their ilk. They are being deliberately non-traditional in the way they run themselves, select candidates, pick policies etc. But this works in their favour as they are differentiating themselves from the traditional parties which is a selling point for their chosen demographic - younger people who are disillusioned with the perceived corruption, backstabbing and bitchery that goes on in parliament.

I'm not planning on voting for them myself, but I have heard from quite a few in the 17-20 demographic that they would vote for them, mostly for the reasons above.

Banana?
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  #1069736 20-Jun-2014 09:16
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geekiegeek: I think its a great asset to National along with David "Don Liu who?" Cunliffe.

I think even staunch Labour supporters don't like the idea of having to form a government with the likes of Winston, Hone and Dot Com.

The internet party is also bad for the greens as it is watering down their voting base which is where a lot of the "stick it to the man" voters usually hang out. Now they have an even bigger "stick it to the man" party to jump in with.

Has anyone stopped to think what our government and country would be like if this motley crew actually managed to get into power? 


I have, and it is pretty scary.

The Labour party is not so bad IMO, but unfortunately for them, they seem to be doing everything they can to make sure they only get about a quarter to a third of the vote, which if the Center-Left mob gets over the line will make them as the highest polling party in a coalition government a bit impotent.
My hopes:
 - Winston doesn't get to the 5% (He will not get a seat), bye bye Kingmaker Peters.
 - Hone loses his seat, bye bye Internet Party, and the Mana Party (who have IMO sold out here and are taking the P*ss with coat-tailing rules).
 - The greens get less than 10% of the vote (For purely personal reasons, nothing to do with politics, I do not want them to have more than 12 MPs)
 - National puts up a decent candidate against Colin Craig

How many of those things will happen? Probably none, but at least I get a say :)


 
 
 
 


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  #1069740 20-Jun-2014 09:19
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geekiegeek: Has anyone stopped to think what our government and country would be like if this motley crew actually managed to get into power? 


That presupposes that any minor coalition partner has the power to force the major party to support all of their policies. This classic claim of the tail wagging the dog is way over-stated, especially given how MMP has played out in NZ ever since its introduction.

The reality is minor parties typically (to continue the canine analogy) get thrown a few small bones for them to maintain their support of the government and some relatively minor ministerial roles, typically in the areas of most concern to that party. Hence such statements as above and one earlier regarding the Legalise Canabis Party really miss the point of (or, more accurately, the actual power wielded by) single-issue or topic-focused parties. Personally, I feel this is one of the positive outcomes of MMP, not a problem of the system.

Bring on the implementation of the Electoral Commission's recommendations, I say. The move to abolish the coat-tail rule and decrease the threshold to 4% are overdue. Collins' decision to not proceed with these changes is a sad example of self-serving politicisation.

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  #1069747 20-Jun-2014 09:28
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kiwirock: Perhaps I'm not on the same page due to not conveying my thoughts on politics more? Are you suggesting I'm for or against socialism? I think you'd be surprised either way.


I'm not saying either of those things.  I'm saying the way you state your argument is in, a word juvenile, and potentially insulting to many.  What I took your argument to be was that the NZ political spectrum is entirely left of countries like America so the use of the epithet is a moot point and needlessly divisive.  However what you were ignoring is that people are discussing the fact that a real world socialist is now leading a party funded by a convicted criminal whose ideas on capitalism are in ever real sense "right" of every political party in NZ.  This means that the IP starts with a large degree of internal political tension.

As I alluded to earlier the Internet is the greatest threat to traditional production and distribution mechanisms and along with things like industrial robots is the greatest threat to what labour unions care about.  LH has a long history with NZ labour unions.  As a committed unionist and socialists she has been opposing exactly the changes the Internet represents.  Her socialist beliefs are directly relevant to the discussion.

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  #1069754 20-Jun-2014 09:38
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Glassboy:
kiwirock: Perhaps I'm not on the same page due to not conveying my thoughts on politics more? Are you suggesting I'm for or against socialism? I think you'd be surprised either way.


I'm not saying either of those things.  I'm saying the way you state your argument is in, a word juvenile, and potentially insulting to many.  What I took your argument to be was that the NZ political spectrum is entirely left of countries like America so the use of the epithet is a moot point and needlessly divisive.  However what you were ignoring is that people are discussing the fact that a real world socialist is now leading a party funded by a convicted criminal whose ideas on capitalism are in ever real sense "right" of every political party in NZ.  This means that the IP starts with a large degree of internal political tension.

As I alluded to earlier the Internet is the greatest threat to traditional production and distribution mechanisms and along with things like industrial robots is the greatest threat to what labour unions care about.  LH has a long history with NZ labour unions.  As a committed unionist and socialists she has been opposing exactly the changes the Internet represents.  Her socialist beliefs are directly relevant to the discussion.


What is Socialism in your view?




Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #1069755 20-Jun-2014 09:42
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PhantomNVD: Actually, as a teacher I really like what they are proposing for schools, a real switch to current education practices and a true shakeup to teaching in a digital community, with a focus on teacher development and a deeper integration into students different potentials being recognised and individually addressed.
+1 to the possibility of parents and teachers driving the path of education rather than "education ministers" with highly paid but out of touch consultants!


I'd suggest that starting the policy with scrap national standards will only fool people so long.  The rest is already being done, or is directly opposed to the beliefs of NZ's educational unions.

331 posts

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  #1069756 20-Jun-2014 09:46
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They ban you from their Facebook page if you try to have a reasoned discussion. If they are for Internet Freedom that's a bit 'ironic'.

 
 
 
 


654 posts

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#1069758 20-Jun-2014 09:50
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geekiegeek: I think its a great asset to National along with David "Don Liu who?" Cunliffe.

I think even staunch Labour supporters don't like the idea of having to form a government with the likes of Winston, Hone and Dot Com.

The internet party is also bad for the greens as it is watering down their voting base which is where a lot of the "stick it to the man" voters usually hang out. Now they have an even bigger "stick it to the man" party to jump in with.

Has anyone stopped to think what our government and country would be like if this motley crew actually managed to get into power? 



As opposed to what the motley crew that are already in power have done and are doing to the country already?  There wont be much difference at all, it'll just be a different 'block of voters' whining how bad it is....  BAU IOW. 

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  #1069764 20-Jun-2014 09:58
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PhantomNVD:
Demeter: I kind of cringe at the thought that Dotcom's on the Herald's list of top 10 trusted people in NZ.

Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11276813


Sorry Demeter, I really respect all your posts as you speak clearly and gracefully even when disagreeing but...

Did you even read that link? Kim Dotcom was 99th/100 NOT top 10 even though they plastered his gaffe all over it... Unless "someone kicked them where they should be kicked" and they changed it after you read?

"Politicians didn't fare well in the trustworthy people stakes either with Hone Harawira, Kim Dotcom, Michael Laws, David Cunliffe and Winston Peters at the bottom of the list."


Yup, sorry about that, my bad! @Timestyles pointed out right after I posted that he was actually near the bottom. I saw the paper version while I was filling a cup of coffee earlier in the day and had not read it properly at all. I am relieved to say the least. :)




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  #1069765 20-Jun-2014 09:58
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KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.

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  #1069774 20-Jun-2014 09:29
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Glassboy:
KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.


You have written 100 text books .... impressive

my question was "What is Socialism in your view?




Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


835 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #1069781 20-Jun-2014 09:35
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KiwiNZ:
Glassboy:
KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.


You have written 100 text books .... impressive

my question was "What is Socialism in your view?


With all due respect, if I want to have a discussion about the political forces that have shaped the last three centuries I generally do it with a) a beer, and b) people who are knowledgeable on the subject.

266 posts

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  #1070771 20-Jun-2014 09:42
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Glassboy:
KiwiNZ:
Glassboy:
KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.


You have written 100 text books .... impressive

my question was "What is Socialism in your view?


With all due respect, if I want to have a discussion about the political forces that have shaped the last three centuries I generally do it with a) a beer, and b) people who are knowledgeable on the subject.


Sounds pretty Kiwiana to me




I'm going to noob myself past judgement

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  #1070778 20-Jun-2014 09:54
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Glassboy:
KiwiNZ:
Glassboy:
KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.


You have written 100 text books .... impressive

my question was "What is Socialism in your view?


With all due respect, if I want to have a discussion about the political forces that have shaped the last three centuries I generally do it with a) a beer, and b) people who are knowledgeable on the subject.


As usual a passive aggressive response from you  to a cilvil question.

Just as aside you do not know me, my beliefs, background or qualifications, I will let you in on one aspect, I was raised to respect others and to use common manners, give it a try sometime.




Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


835 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #1070798 20-Jun-2014 10:07
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KiwiNZ:
Glassboy:
KiwiNZ:
Glassboy:
KiwiNZ: 

What is Socialism in your view?


You can find the answer to that question in a whole host of 100 level university text books.


You have written 100 text books .... impressive

my question was "What is Socialism in your view?


With all due respect, if I want to have a discussion about the political forces that have shaped the last three centuries I generally do it with a) a beer, and b) people who are knowledgeable on the subject.


As usual a passive aggressive response from you  to a cilvil question.

Just as aside you do not know me, my beliefs, background or qualifications, I will let you in on one aspect, I was raised to respect others and to use common manners, give it a try sometime.


You're not demonstrating either manners or an understanding of what passive aggressive means.

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