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  # 1670878 14-Nov-2016 17:43
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ajobbins:

 

And to add to the above, Trump tweeted last week "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"

 

He's calling unfair the very thing he was suggesting in 2012 when he tweeted "We should march on Washington and stop this travesty".

 

 

I can imagine the headline "Politician in change of mind scandal" - because that has never happened before, has it?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like him - I've said elsewhere that I think he's an idiot.  But he is a product of the USA's democratic system, and I think democracy should be respected, even if it sometimes produces the "wrong" (for a given value of "wrong") result.  It's just that some groups tend to protest more loudly when it doesn't go their way - the same applied to Brexit quite recently.  And I'm totally against flag burning, book burning, car burning or effigy burning of any sort, especially as a demonstration against a democratic result.


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  # 1670879 14-Nov-2016 17:50
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Fred99:

 

ajobbins:

 

And to add to the above, Trump tweeted last week "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"

 

He's calling unfair the very thing he was suggesting in 2012 when he tweeted "We should march on Washington and stop this travesty".

 

 

I think he realised the hypocrisy - or someone close to him pointed it out.  Next day he tweeted:

 

"Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!"

 

 

This is another big deal... Does he need someone to tug his sleeve every time he says something stupid and then has to retract? Just shows what they elected...





 
 
 
 


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  # 1670881 14-Nov-2016 18:00
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shk292:

 

 

 

I can imagine the headline "Politician in change of mind scandal" - because that has never happened before, has it?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like him - I've said elsewhere that I think he's an idiot.  But he is a product of the USA's democratic system, and I think democracy should be respected, even if it sometimes produces the "wrong" (for a given value of "wrong") result.  It's just that some groups tend to protest more loudly when it doesn't go their way - the same applied to Brexit quite recently.  And I'm totally against flag burning, book burning, car burning or effigy burning of any sort, especially as a demonstration against a democratic result.

 

 

I agree with you on this. I also don't see the point of violence or burning things as a form of protest. I also don't think that those who do this are representive of any serious political grouping and I get a little tired of those who mindlessly toss labels like 'leftist' around.

 

Trump did win legimately, no question about that, and those who allowed him to should get what they deserve. Maybe it will be a useful object lesson. The election result must be respected. I am apprehensive, because that unmentionable Austrian also achieved power by democratic means, and I don't trust Trump to respect the rules once he is in power because he has shown no respect for them up to now. But I will hope for the best. What other choice do we have?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1670904 14-Nov-2016 18:40
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JWR:

Rikkitic:


Geektastic:


Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.



I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here? 


A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.


 



I disagree with the idea of absolutes in right and wrong.


I do agree that there are things that almost everyone would agree are wrong/bad or right/good.


But, the World is far, far more grey than it is black and white.


If fact, I think it is dangerous to oversimplify things like this.


A lot of injustice and oppression starts with this type of thinking.



Also history is rife with things that were wrong and are now right and vice versa.

Things change as do morals.





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  # 1670908 14-Nov-2016 18:47
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It has occurred to me that what I considered a remarkably unlikely event could potentially come to pass, making my objections to those against gun control look .. wrong. 

 

A lot of people who believe in the right to bear arms (of any type) do so because they want protection not against burglars or such, but from a potential attack by the Government. There is the potential for the violence and protests to go from what it is now, to a major (much more major) thing, which causes the Government to step in (right or wrongly) and then the situation has played itself out

 

as the fear mongers have predicted. 

 

Unthinkable just a matter of weeks ago (to me), it's now seeming potentially possible (though still very unlikely).

 

 


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  # 1670956 14-Nov-2016 19:30
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For all the Trump bashers out there, 50 year old warning:

https://youtu.be/_se8c-wN35M

But is that really him?

 
 
 
 


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  # 1670968 14-Nov-2016 19:49
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 


Also history is rife with things that were wrong and are now right and vice versa.

Things change as do morals.

 

History is also rife with things that have always been wrong. Laws may change to suit the convenience of the moment, or society may be twisted to condone repulsive acts, but that doesn't make such things right. In ancient Egypt people ate their children and no doubt told each other it was justified in the circumstances. In Rwanda one group of people were slaughtered by another, sometimes while taking refuge in church. Torture, murder, unspeakable acts may be legitimised in one way or another by some transitory authority but people with a sense of ethics (which I firmly believe are absolute) know better.

 

 

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1670969 14-Nov-2016 19:50
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frankv:

 

 

 

Fred99:

 

Oh yeah that's right.  Bad enough for Billy Bush to be suspended and then resigning for standing alongside as he was saying it, but not so bad that the President Elect of the USA brushes it off as "locker room talk" - the kind of thing we all say, apparently. 

 

 

I don't know *why* Billy Bush was suspended and then resigned. Do you? It could be because he released the recording. But could it have been because he didn't allow his employer to make as much out of this money-spinner of a recording secret?  Or maybe he was bonking the editor's wife? Maybe he just wasn't bringing in the ratings, so he got a golden handshake? Maybe it was pressure from Trump himself, or some insider in the Republican Party, or Hillary Clinton, or some insider in the Democrat Party. Maybe he was just collateral damage in the media beatup of the whole thing.

 

The presence of groupies around rock groups is an example of exactly the same thing... sex of any kind is available on demand from strangers for famous people. I heard Robbie Williams say essentially the same thing, complete with anecdotal example, on a TV chat show a week or two ago. I've had "locker room" discussions on this subject before (although not in locker rooms)... I guess I'm just fortunate or clever or insignificant enough not to have been recorded saying it, and that no-one cares anyway. I don't understand the motivation of the groupies, but it's undeniable that they exist. I view that with incredulity, so maybe *I* heard an overtone of incredulity in Trump's voice as he was explaining essentially the same thing to the DJ.

 

And I'm somewhat incredulous that the whole thing blew up into such a media feeding frenzy of moral outrage, and that a whole group of people took *this* as a rallying cry against Trump.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Context matters

 

The presence of groupies around rock stars?  Trump was at the time a ~60YO businessman, endorsing or joking about sexual assault of women. Consent is context there. He wasn't some larrikin rock star.  If you've had "discussions of that nature", at least as an adult, then we live in different worlds.  He was exposed as a dirty_old_man.

 

And he was exposed as a dirty_old_man in context of a someone who had been trying to score moral points against the husband of his opponent, who did something unwise - but with consent - many years earlier.

 

I do buy into the sense of moral outrage.  I do buy in to the probability that women who came forward to make accusations that he'd behaved to them in a manner entirely consistent with the taped admission were serious issues. 

 

There was no point, clearly, to the "rallying cry" against Trump.  His voters have spoken, that they don't care, and I expect they'll continue to not care as he proceeds with his promises.

 

 


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  # 1670970 14-Nov-2016 19:51
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic: Also history is rife with things that were wrong and are now right and vice versa.

Things change as do morals.

 

History is also rife with things that have always been wrong. Laws may change to suit the convenience of the moment, or society may be twisted to condone repulsive acts, but that doesn't make such things right. In ancient Egypt people ate their children and no doubt told each other it was justified in the circumstances. In Rwanda one group of people were slaughtered by another, sometimes while taking refuge in church. Torture, murder, unspeakable acts may be legitimised in one way or another by some transitory authority but people with a sense of ethics (which I firmly believe are absolute) know better.

 

 

Just look at after 9/11 war on terror and the torture by CIA operatives. Sorry, I mean "enhanced interrogation". Just because a President managed to get Congress to give them the use of black sites, torture and rendition doesn't mean it was morally right. It is still wrong.





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  # 1670987 14-Nov-2016 20:46
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freitasm:

Rikkitic:


Geektastic: Also history is rife with things that were wrong and are now right and vice versa.

Things change as do morals.


History is also rife with things that have always been wrong. Laws may change to suit the convenience of the moment, or society may be twisted to condone repulsive acts, but that doesn't make such things right. In ancient Egypt people ate their children and no doubt told each other it was justified in the circumstances. In Rwanda one group of people were slaughtered by another, sometimes while taking refuge in church. Torture, murder, unspeakable acts may be legitimised in one way or another by some transitory authority but people with a sense of ethics (which I firmly believe are absolute) know better.



Just look at after 9/11 war on terror and the torture by CIA operatives. Sorry, I mean "enhanced interrogation". Just because a President managed to get Congress to give them the use of black sites, torture and rendition doesn't mean it was morally right. It is still wrong.



Not sure. If 12v batteries and jump leads will get info that saves thousands i'm good with that.





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  # 1670990 14-Nov-2016 20:52
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Geektastic:
freitasm:

 

Rikkitic:

 

 

 

Geektastic: Also history is rife with things that were wrong and are now right and vice versa.

Things change as do morals.

 

 

 

History is also rife with things that have always been wrong. Laws may change to suit the convenience of the moment, or society may be twisted to condone repulsive acts, but that doesn't make such things right. In ancient Egypt people ate their children and no doubt told each other it was justified in the circumstances. In Rwanda one group of people were slaughtered by another, sometimes while taking refuge in church. Torture, murder, unspeakable acts may be legitimised in one way or another by some transitory authority but people with a sense of ethics (which I firmly believe are absolute) know better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just look at after 9/11 war on terror and the torture by CIA operatives. Sorry, I mean "enhanced interrogation". Just because a President managed to get Congress to give them the use of black sites, torture and rendition doesn't mean it was morally right. It is still wrong.

 



Not sure. If 12v batteries and jump leads will get info that saves thousands i'm good with that.

 

 

 

Oh boy, did you just open a can of worms.... lol


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  # 1670997 14-Nov-2016 20:58
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Nah, I'm not going there. Some things are just always wrong. Inventing special cases to make them seem reasonable choices doesn't change that.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1671011 14-Nov-2016 21:26
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I have been wondering if it is time to start panicking about Trump as president and I think the answer is ... not yet.

 


I am still very unimpressed with idea of him as President and the next 4 years will probably be quite ugly.

 

But, Trump is already (as expected) back flipping on the border wall and deporting 13 million Mexicans.

 


At heart, I think he a pragmatist and it is the crazy ideologists that usually get us into trouble.

 


It is like comparing "The Art of the Deal " with "Mein Kampf"

 


I am more worried about the people that will be in his cabinet.

 

There are sure to some extreme political ideologists and religious fundamentalists. Vice President (elect) Pence already fits the religious fundamentalist category IMO.

 

 

 


Also, there also could be some good things for New Zealand.

 


It likely that the TPPA is dead and I am quite happy to see the end of that corporate welfare treaty.

 


I am for trade. But, the compromises in the TPPA seem far too dangerous for the future of New Zealand.

 


Besides, there might other opportunities opening up now.

 


Putin has already said he looks forward to resuming free trade negotiations with New Zealand.

 

 

 


Speaking of Putin, perhaps some of the tensions between Russia and NATO countries might ease .

 


I don't pretend Putin is any boy scout. But, what he has been doing is no worse than what the US has been doing for decades and we haven't criticized them very often.

 

I think it has been very foolish and dangerous of NATO to push themselves right up to Russia's doorstep.

 

Russia is a country that knows what it is like to be invaded.


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