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1695 posts

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  # 1673339 18-Nov-2016 08:27
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Also, I think the part about resenting the management level (the next level up that people are in actual contact with) and the poor but not the 'rich' can't be overlooked. University (called college in the US) educated people voted republican. Because I think the college educated understand it isn't management level that is the problem but the whole neo-liberal, trickle down, invisible hand system that keeps making the rich richer. For the working class to blame the rich is to break faith with the basic American Dream which is drummed into US citizens. The idea that anyone can arrive in America poor and become rich through hard work. Better to demonise the poor, the immigrants, the people who don't look the same than break with that basic tenet.

So that being the case I can understand why people could get behind Trump, Tamaki and even Brexit. I remember reading Tamaki's followers see his wealth as indicating the success of his methods and that they can have it too if they follow and believe him and tithe to him. (Think voters see Trump that way?)

I think a lot of people, including me didn't take Trump seriously enough. Neither choice was great but I thought people would take the lesser of two evils. Instead, Americans voted for change and an idealised America (Make America Great Again) where there was once upon a time a securer middle class with manufacturing jobs before everything was globalised and outsourced. I can understand it from that point of view.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

Edit: link

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  # 1673405 18-Nov-2016 10:08
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JayADee: Also, I think the part about resenting the management level (the next level up that people are in actual contact with) and the poor but not the 'rich' can't be overlooked. University (called college in the US) educated people voted republican. Because I think the college educated understand it isn't management level that is the problem but the whole neo-liberal, trickle down, invisible hand system that keeps making the rich richer. For the working class to blame the rich is to break faith with the basic American Dream which is drummed into US citizens. The idea that anyone can arrive in America poor and become rich through hard work. Better to demonise the poor, the immigrants, the people who don't look the same than break with that basic tenet.

So that being the case I can understand why people could get behind Trump, Tamaki and even Brexit. I remember reading Tamaki's followers see his wealth as indicating the success of his methods and that they can have it too if they follow and believe him and tithe to him. (Think voters see Trump that way?)

I think a lot of people, including me didn't take Trump seriously enough. Neither choice was great but I thought people would take the lesser of two evils. Instead, Americans voted for change and an idealised America (Make America Great Again) where there was once upon a time a securer middle class with manufacturing jobs before everything was globalised and outsourced. I can understand it from that point of view.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

Edit: link

 

I have an issue with your statement "University (called college in the US) educated people voted republican.". This sounds to me like you're saying that most of them voted Republican. Maybe you meant that some of them did?

 

My understanding is that what Trump did different was to motivate the non-college educated whites to vote. That's borne out somewhat by the site you quoted, and http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/exit-polls

 

 

 

52% of college grads went Clinton, 43% went Trump. Higher degrees favoured Clinton 58% to 37%. No college or no completed degree went to Trump by 52% vs 44%

 

Other stats on the Fox page are also very interesting and confirm what you're saying: The "honest & trustworthy" question found that almost no-one thought both were trustworthy, 34% trusted only Clinton, 31% trusted only Trump, and 29% trusted neither. But 45% of the "neithers" voted for Trump anyway (vs 40% for Clinton).

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1673522 18-Nov-2016 11:57
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I watched something on Al Jazeera the other night where they approximated Trump got many billions of dollars of free publicity from the privately owned US televsion networks. It was the media that got Trump into office...not necessarily due to all the pushing of Trump by Foxnews but also due to the fact that his name was on the news 7 times as much as Clinton.


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  # 1673541 18-Nov-2016 12:23
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Pumpedd:

 

I watched something on Al Jazeera the other night where they approximated Trump got many billions of dollars of free publicity from the privately owned US televsion networks. It was the media that got Trump into office...not necessarily due to all the pushing of Trump by Foxnews but also due to the fact that his name was on the news 7 times as much as Clinton.

 

 

Two billion USD was the estimate that I last heard (before he was elected).

 

Donald Trump has always been very, very good at getting something for nothing, using somebody else's money. That's why he is filthy rich.  

 

If he survives his term in office, he will come out even richer.  undecided





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Ultimate Geek


# 1673546 18-Nov-2016 12:29
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gzt:
MaxLV:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Anyone who thinks Trump is just misunderstood should see the CNN interview with Megyn Kelly.

 

 

On the Clinton News Network is it? That's hardly an unbiased source... 

 

 

I haven't seen the interview. I think it is unlikely that CNN would fake an interview with Megyn Kelly if that is what you are suggesting.

I googled it. It's interesting because it covers the period leading up to Trump's 'blood coming out of her' comments after the first Republican candidates debate. It appears there was a lot of bullying directly from the Trump team aimed at Kelly leading up to that debate.

Kelly still works for Fox News I believe. Do you have a problem with Megyn Kelly or maybe think Cooper should not have asked about those sections of her autobiography?

 

Who said anything about CNN faking the interview? I've watched it. It's not fake. It's just two 'so called unbiased' news/media celebrities stroking each others egos....

 

CNN isn't called the Clinton News Network for nothing. Most of the time their so called news reporting seems to be nothing more than 'press releases' from Clinton and the Democrats.

 

Likewise Fox News is little better than a Republican party channel.

 

Megyn Kelly, being a Fox News employee, has to follow her employers 'directives' and 'demonise' Trump. It's what she gets paid to do after all.

 

There's only two reasons why I'm glad he won. 

 

1. He killed the TPPA. That can only benefit New Zealand.

 

2. He's 'getting rid of the 'Washington Establishment'.  Just look at the howls of outrage over his staff appointments because they're not Washington career 'staffers'. And the outrage of the news media at his election clearly shows the media bias in the USA. The Press Pool screaming blue murder because they weren't told about and taken to dinner with his family is classic!

 

BTW please remember this is all IMHO. 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1673549 18-Nov-2016 12:33
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Interesting that you state that Fox News directs its employees to demonize Trump.....when all I saw on Fox was the exact opposite.

 

You may well be in a position soon enough to see what New Zealand will be like when free trade doesnt exist any more.


654 posts

Ultimate Geek


# 1673551 18-Nov-2016 12:36
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freitasm:

 

MaxLV:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Anyone who thinks Trump is just misunderstood should see the CNN interview with Megyn Kelly.

 

 

On the Clinton News Network is it? That's hardly an unbiased source... 

 

 

Your feeble attempt at sarcasm failed because Megyn Kelly works for Fox, surprisingly.

 

 

I know. I watched the 'interview.' It's just two based news 'celebrities' stroking each others Ego... 


 
 
 
 


Lock him up!
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  # 1673554 18-Nov-2016 12:45
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I guess people see what they want to.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


654 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1673560 18-Nov-2016 12:57
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Pumpedd:

 

Interesting that you state that Fox News directs its employees to demonize Trump.....when all I saw on Fox was the exact opposite.

 

You may well be in a position soon enough to see what New Zealand will be like when free trade doesnt exist any more.

 

 

 

 

What 'Free Trade?'

 

Free trade doesn't exist now. International trade treaties doesn't make trade 'free' between the signatories.

 

Just look at Australia's years long 'ban' on importing NZ apples. all our 'free trade' counted for nothing there.

 

The TPPA wasn't a Free Trade agreement. It was anything but free.

 

A classic example these 'corporate friendly' agreements was in the news last week.

 

The Florence City Council (in Italy) is being sued by McDonalds fro $20 million US$ for damages and loss of **FUTURE** earnings because the City Council declined the McDonalds application to open an outlet in a Central Florence Square. The application was declined as a McDonalds outlet in the square did not 'fit in' with the cultural and artistic historical nature of the location.

 

http://fortune.com/2016/11/08/mcdonalds-sues-florence-italy/

 

 

 

 


1695 posts

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  # 1673564 18-Nov-2016 13:01
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frankv:

JayADee: Also, I think the part about resenting the management level (the next level up that people are in actual contact with) and the poor but not the 'rich' can't be overlooked. University (called college in the US) educated people voted republican. Because I think the college educated understand it isn't management level that is the problem but the whole neo-liberal, trickle down, invisible hand system that keeps making the rich richer. For the working class to blame the rich is to break faith with the basic American Dream which is drummed into US citizens. The idea that anyone can arrive in America poor and become rich through hard work. Better to demonise the poor, the immigrants, the people who don't look the same than break with that basic tenet.

So that being the case I can understand why people could get behind Trump, Tamaki and even Brexit. I remember reading Tamaki's followers see his wealth as indicating the success of his methods and that they can have it too if they follow and believe him and tithe to him. (Think voters see Trump that way?)

I think a lot of people, including me didn't take Trump seriously enough. Neither choice was great but I thought people would take the lesser of two evils. Instead, Americans voted for change and an idealised America (Make America Great Again) where there was once upon a time a securer middle class with manufacturing jobs before everything was globalised and outsourced. I can understand it from that point of view.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

Edit: link


I have an issue with your statement "University (called college in the US) educated people voted republican.". This sounds to me like you're saying that most of them voted Republican. Maybe you meant that some of them did?


My understanding is that what Trump did different was to motivate the non-college educated whites to vote. That's borne out somewhat by the site you quoted, and http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2016/exit-polls


 


52% of college grads went Clinton, 43% went Trump. Higher degrees favoured Clinton 58% to 37%. No college or no completed degree went to Trump by 52% vs 44%


Other stats on the Fox page are also very interesting and confirm what you're saying: The "honest & trustworthy" question found that almost no-one thought both were trustworthy, 34% trusted only Clinton, 31% trusted only Trump, and 29% trusted neither. But 45% of the "neithers" voted for Trump anyway (vs 40% for Clinton).


 


 



I knew someone would call me out on that. 👍🙂 I meant the majority of them did. Among white college grads only they voted Trump! And I agree with you on your points. I also wouldn't trust either of them so I relate to the American voters there. 😜

Quote: '' In the 2016 election, a wide gap in presidential preferences emerged between those with and without a college degree. College graduates backed Clinton by a 9-point margin (52%-43%), while those without a college degree backed Trump 52%-44%. This is by far the widest gap in support among college graduates and non-college graduates in exit polls dating back to 1980. For example, in 2012, there was hardly any difference between the two groups: College graduates backed Obama over Romney by 50%-48%, and those without a college degree also supported Obama 51%-47%.

Among whites, Trump won an overwhelming share of those without a college degree; and among white college graduates – a group that many identified as key for a potential Clinton victory – Trump outperformed Clinton by a narrow 4-point margin.

Trump’s margin among whites without a college degree is the largest among any candidate in exit polls since 1980. Two-thirds (67%) of non-college whites backed Trump, compared with just 28% who supported Clinton, resulting in a 39-point advantage for Trump among this group. In 2012 and 2008, non-college whites also preferred the Republican over the Democratic candidate but by less one-sided margins (61%-36% and 58%-40%, respectively).

Trump won whites with a college degree 49% to 45%. In 2012, Romney won college whites by a somewhat wider margin in 2012 (56%-42%). Trump’s advantage among this group is the same as John McCain’s margin in 2008 (51%-47%).

Due largely to the dramatic movement among whites with no college degree, the gap between college and non-college whites is wider in 2016 than in any past election dating to 1980.'' from http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

I wonder how Gareth Morgan's new party will fare?

654 posts

Ultimate Geek


# 1673566 18-Nov-2016 13:06
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Rikkitic:

 

I guess people see what they want to.

 

 

 

Exactly, especially those who hold a different/opposing opinion to yours. (and mine) 

 

As long as you/I dont believe your/my opinion is Fact or 'The Truth' (whatever that may be) we'll all be OK.  


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  # 1673595 18-Nov-2016 14:02
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The City & The Nation

 

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/the-city-and-the-nation/

 

Interestingly enough its just the way the cards fell. The HBR article posted earlier explains a bit more.


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  # 1673607 18-Nov-2016 14:19
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Isnt it very simple being an island nation far removed from the populated areas of the globe??

 

If we want to equally share in the worlds economy..eg afford to travel freely, afford technology and other luxuries we need to be able to sell our goods to the world. Trade has been key to our economy since refrigerated shipping was introduced.

 

Seems to be a no brainer....but it seems Trump doesnt have many cells in that department.

 

Its like him meeting with the Japanese PM today and not having a briefing from the US officials...but then Trump does know more about ISIS than the US Generals.


gzt

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  # 1673613 18-Nov-2016 14:25
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MaxLV: The Press Pool screaming blue murder because they weren't told about and taken to dinner with his family is classic!

By convention for a long time the press pool is assigned to cover the president and the president-elect 24/7. As in the case of Kennedy and Reagan, if there is a serious incident it is in everyone's interest to have accurate information available from multiple sources immediately.

The pool would not have been in the restaurant. They would just hang around outside in case anything newsworthy happened. Ie; some unexpected world event and the president elect can step outside and make an immediate comment.

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  # 1673986 19-Nov-2016 10:04
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President-elect Donald Trump name-checks New Zealand in morning Twitter tirade

"President-elect Donald Trump has vented online again, this time mentioning NZ as he lashed out against the New York Times."





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