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1759 posts

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  #1991949 9-Apr-2018 12:39
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Rikkitic:

 

networkn:

 

Heh, you have failed to pay attention to the earlier postings that healthcare funding has increased under National by a higher percentage than the prior Labour Government. 

 

You've also failed to take into account that Labour cut *500* Million of it's promised funding from the healthcare budget in order to pay Winstons ransom. (Yet another broken promise, which I think I'm going to coin as #YABPbL). As someone with close ties to the medical community, I can tell you a lot of Doctors voted Labour soley for the extra funding that they would be getting, and those doctors are now frothing at the mouth angry over that broken promise. 

 

It's worth noting that National had promised to increase funding this term. 

 

Also worth noting, is that Labour is increasing GP Workloads significantly over the coming 6 years whilst compensating them by a ridiculously smaller amount. 

 

Hardly the glowing investment in Healthcare is it?

 

 

Welcome back. I wasn't actually trying to do a National vs Labour thing here, just pointing out that there is some substance to the allegations of ongoing chronic underfunding. That doesn't necessarily mean there hasn't been any funding, just not what is needed to keep the health system going. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nonsense..you can't help yourself. How many totally new hospitals have been built in the last decade? I can think of Wellington, Southland and the green light given for Dunedin. Probably missing some.


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  #1991957 9-Apr-2018 13:02
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I am not being my own expert here. Someone posted some links indicating one thing, I posted some indicating something else. Choose the propaganda that suits your prejudices.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #1992026 9-Apr-2018 14:18
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Quote from RNZ: 

 

"At the end of December, the country's 20 DHBs expected their collective year-end deficit to be $178 million.

 

That figure has since risen to $189m, and health officials say financial pressures, including a nurses' pay settlement, could push it up to $225m.

 

The senior doctors' union blamed underfunding by the National-led government and some poor decisions by DHBs regarding the deferral of maintenance.

 

The executive director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists, Ian Powell, says eight years of under-funding of health by the former government is to blame."

 

 

 

Emphasis added by me. I am not saying the above is true. I don't know if it is. I am just pointing out that some people, who presumably are in a position to know, think it is. So who is right? Again, pick the source that feeds your bubble.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


774 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #1992081 9-Apr-2018 15:10
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Rikkitic:

 

Quote from RNZ: 

 

"At the end of December, the country's 20 DHBs expected their collective year-end deficit to be $178 million.

 

That figure has since risen to $189m, and health officials say financial pressures, including a nurses' pay settlement, could push it up to $225m.

 

The senior doctors' union blamed underfunding by the National-led government and some poor decisions by DHBs regarding the deferral of maintenance.

 

The executive director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists, Ian Powell, says eight years of under-funding of health by the former government is to blame."

 

 

 

Emphasis added by me. I am not saying the above is true. I don't know if it is. I am just pointing out that some people, who presumably are in a position to know, think it is. So who is right? Again, pick the source that feeds your bubble.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure - that's a story quoting a bunch of "vested interests" and unions blaming a lack of funds for their woes.  Those are opinions.

 

That's altogether different from auditable and provable accounting facts that demonstrate that there were no cuts to health budgets, and that it in fact increased.  (at a rate greater than inflation, and general population growth COMBINED)

 

 

 

The primary issue here is not in fact underfunding, but poor spending decisions being made by the DHBs.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12025807

 

 

Leaked documents reveal Counties Manukau DHB has prioritised spending on new lecture theatres and event spaces over the remediation of leaky, mouldy buildings.

 

 

 

 

 


517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #1992089 9-Apr-2018 15:27
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6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Quote from RNZ: 

 

"At the end of December, the country's 20 DHBs expected their collective year-end deficit to be $178 million.

 

That figure has since risen to $189m, and health officials say financial pressures, including a nurses' pay settlement, could push it up to $225m.

 

The senior doctors' union blamed underfunding by the National-led government and some poor decisions by DHBs regarding the deferral of maintenance.

 

The executive director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists, Ian Powell, says eight years of under-funding of health by the former government is to blame."

 

 

 

Emphasis added by me. I am not saying the above is true. I don't know if it is. I am just pointing out that some people, who presumably are in a position to know, think it is. So who is right? Again, pick the source that feeds your bubble.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure - that's a story quoting a bunch of "vested interests" and unions blaming a lack of funds for their woes.  Those are opinions.

 

That's altogether different from auditable and provable accounting facts that demonstrate that there were no cuts to health budgets, and that it in fact increased.  (at a rate greater than inflation, and general population growth COMBINED)

 

 

 

The primary issue here is not in fact underfunding, but poor spending decisions being made by the DHBs.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12025807

 

 

Leaked documents reveal Counties Manukau DHB has prioritised spending on new lecture theatres and event spaces over the remediation of leaky, mouldy buildings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That summarizes it well. There is two facts:

 

1. Health spending has increased significantly under the previous national government

 

2. MIddlemore hospital has problems

 

 

 

There are lots of opinions. But opinions aren't facts.

 

 

 

I have thought for many years that something about the DHB system must be inefficient, but not really knowing much about it, or having much to do with hospitals or the health system I don't know what it is. It's not really a political problem, but it needs a brave government to take the plunge and step in and sort it out.


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  #1992091 9-Apr-2018 15:28
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6FIEND:

 

Sure - that's a story quoting a bunch of "vested interests" and unions blaming a lack of funds for their woes.  Those are opinions.

 

That's altogether different from auditable and provable accounting facts that demonstrate that there were no cuts to health budgets, and that it in fact increased.  (at a rate greater than inflation, and general population growth COMBINED)

 

 

What about the other links I posted? Are they also opinion? I agree with you as far as 'auditable and provable' facts are concerned, but how much of the 'evidence' posted on threads like this one qualifies? The point I am making is that people can and do pick the evidence that supports what they have already decided. From what I have read elsewhere, I don't doubt that mismanagement did play a big role in current health service funding problems. I do wonder if that is the whole story. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


774 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #1992094 9-Apr-2018 15:32
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...there is also this from Patrick Smellie:

 

https://twitter.com/pjsmellie/status/983134617682112513

 

 

Is (it) pedantic to question the narrative about under-investment at Middlemore when today's DHB stats show the capital budget is significantly underspent? I.e., under-funding can't be the issue if money for capital upgrades is going unspent.

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1992105 9-Apr-2018 15:45
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Here is an 'auditable and provable' fact: National led the government for nine years. The health system, funded in large part by the government, is in crisis. Is the latter because the government did not provide sufficient funding? Is it because of mismanagement? If the cause is mismangement, does the government of the day bear responsibility because it did not enforce good management?

 

However you cut it, National was in power for nearly a decade and during that time the health services took a giant step backwards. Whether or not this is the fault of the government, surely it is their responsibility? Maybe the government of the day just did a bad job of living up to that responsibility and should not be entrusted with it again?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1992118 9-Apr-2018 15:55
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Rikkitic:

 

Here is an 'auditable and provable' fact: National led the government for nine years. The health system, funded in large part by the government, is in crisis. Is the latter because the government did not provide sufficient funding? Is it because of mismanagement? If the cause is mismangement, does the government of the day bear responsibility because it did not enforce good management?

 

However you cut it, National was in power for nearly a decade and during that time the health services took a giant step backwards. Whether or not this is the fault of the government, surely it is their responsibility? Maybe the government of the day just did a bad job of living up to that responsibility and should not be entrusted with it again?

 

 

 

 

So we are back to the difference between fact and opinion. You are expressing an opinion. Feel free to provide some actual numbers. 6Fiend has done so to provide evidence to support his view. 

 

Anytime you use "if" to start a sentence you aren't stating facts. 

 

Where are the numbers to show that the healthcare sector is in crisis? (as opposed to there being some urgent matters that need attention which is a normal part of Governance). More details is emerging about Middlemore one of our oldest hospitals that seem to indicate factors that change the picture somewhat.

 

Where are some numbers to show that the healthcare is underfunded worse now than as it was say 10 years ago when Labour was rui err running the country? Taking into account population growth etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #1992122 9-Apr-2018 16:00
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@Rikkitic

 

Regarding your earlier links:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/80411042/Canterbury-District-Health-Board-gets-lowest-funding-increase

 

This includes both fact and opinion.

 

Example Facts:


Over the last eight years, Counties Manukau has received an extra $425m in funding. Canterbury has received $331m.

 

District health boards received an extra $400 million in Vote Health's 2016-17 package

 


Example Opinion:


researchers warn more health care will need to be paid by individuals as health funding fails to keep up with growing need.

 


Canterbury Charity Hospital founder Phil Bagshaw said this year's health budget was "old-fashioned economic thinking".

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/80318036/researchers-claim-nz-health-budget-declining-publiclyfunded-surgery-on-way-out

 

...also includes both fact and opinion.

 

Example facts:


The $16.1 billion 2016 Health Budget, announced on Thursday, was $170 million more than last year...

 

Between 2009-10 and 2014-15, Vote Health's operational expenditure increased by $2 billion

 

Example opinions:


New Zealand's health budget has been declining for almost a decade and could signal health reforms akin to the sweeping changes of the 1990s, new research claims.

 

the researchers' analysis of Budget data from 2009-10 found the country's health budget had fallen short of what was needed each year

 

Short summary:
FACTS: The Health budget steadily increased year-on-year under the last National Government.  It increased (in inflation-adjusted terms) beyond what Labour funded it at a rate higher than the population growth that NZ experienced.
OPINIONS: It's not enough to do everything that we want to do. (from Healthcare advocates, lobbyists, and Unions.)


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  #1992140 9-Apr-2018 16:16
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networkn:

 

Where are some numbers to show that the healthcare is underfunded worse now than as it was say 10 years ago when Labour was rui err running the country? Taking into account population growth etc. 

 

 

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I get your point but my point remains that there is a problem with the health service today, unless you dispute that. If you agree that there is a problem, then something must have caused it. Maybe it was Labour's fault 10 years ago. I don't know, but that means National had 9 years to fix it and didn't. So now it is National's fault. That seems like a logical conclusion to me.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1992145 9-Apr-2018 16:23
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6FIEND:

 

Short summary:
FACTS: The Health budget steadily increased year-on-year under the last National Government.  It increased (in inflation-adjusted terms) beyond what Labour funded it at a rate higher than the population growth that NZ experienced.
OPINIONS: It's not enough to do everything that we want to do. (from Healthcare advocates, lobbyists, and Unions.)

 

 

Okay, I give up. You win. Even if I could find more facts that would satisfy you, which I'm certain I could with some effort, I have no doubt you could find bigger and better ones to dispute them. In any case, I don't disagree with your conclusion. It will never be enough to do everything we want. So we have the answer. Now if I could only remember the question. Maybe I should ask Deep Thought.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


5434 posts

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  #1992152 9-Apr-2018 16:27
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Pumpedd:

 

Nonsense..you can't help yourself. How many totally new hospitals have been built in the last decade? I can think of Wellington, Southland and the green light given for Dunedin. Probably missing some.

 

 

Blenheim also had a major building programme recently.





Mike

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  #1992417 9-Apr-2018 22:36
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Rikkitic:

 

6FIEND:

 

Short summary:
FACTS: The Health budget steadily increased year-on-year under the last National Government.  It increased (in inflation-adjusted terms) beyond what Labour funded it at a rate higher than the population growth that NZ experienced.
OPINIONS: It's not enough to do everything that we want to do. (from Healthcare advocates, lobbyists, and Unions.)

 

 

Okay, I give up. You win. Even if I could find more facts that would satisfy you, which I'm certain I could with some effort, I have no doubt you could find bigger and better ones to dispute them. In any case, I don't disagree with your conclusion. It will never be enough to do everything we want. So we have the answer. Now if I could only remember the question. Maybe I should ask Deep Thought.

 

 

 

 

It isnt about winning or losing and you need to start arguing for different reasons. It is a fact that the Health system is underfunded, the same as every health system globally. Even countries far more prosperous than NZ are struggling to find anywhere near enough funding so that the population is satisfied.

 

Sadly our Health system has always been underfunded and always will be. I am of the opinion that even if you doubled the funding you certainly wouldnt get double the services and a content health system. 

 

The health system is very important to me and was my main criteria in who I voted for last election. Labour gave vague assurances to the electorate and as has been reported back peddles on promises due to coalition agreements. That is pathetic imo when health is so important.

 

I also believe that the HEalth System needs a major shakeup as the bureaucracy surrounding it has grown significantly and usually the only way to remedy is to restructure. 

 

It is true that the last government gave vastly more (in %GDP terms) to health than Labour ever has and what is clear Labour seems intent on not changing that. Lucky lucky students.


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  #1992418 9-Apr-2018 22:36
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Rikkitic:

 

6FIEND:

 

Short summary:
FACTS: The Health budget steadily increased year-on-year under the last National Government.  It increased (in inflation-adjusted terms) beyond what Labour funded it at a rate higher than the population growth that NZ experienced.
OPINIONS: It's not enough to do everything that we want to do. (from Healthcare advocates, lobbyists, and Unions.)

 

 

Okay, I give up. You win. Even if I could find more facts that would satisfy you, which I'm certain I could with some effort, I have no doubt you could find bigger and better ones to dispute them. In any case, I don't disagree with your conclusion. It will never be enough to do everything we want. So we have the answer. Now if I could only remember the question. Maybe I should ask Deep Thought.

 

 

 

 

It isnt about winning or losing and you need to start arguing for different reasons. It is a fact that the Health system is underfunded, the same as every health system globally. Even countries far more prosperous than NZ are struggling to find anywhere near enough funding so that the population is satisfied.

 

Sadly our Health system has always been underfunded and always will be. I am of the opinion that even if you doubled the funding you certainly wouldnt get double the services and a content health system. 

 

The health system is very important to me and was my main criteria in who I voted for last election. Labour gave vague assurances to the electorate and as has been reported back peddles on promises due to coalition agreements. That is pathetic imo when health is so important.

 

I also believe that the HEalth System needs a major shakeup as the bureaucracy surrounding it has grown significantly and usually the only way to remedy is to restructure. 

 

It is true that the last government gave vastly more (in %GDP terms) to health than Labour ever has and what is clear Labour seems intent on not changing that. Lucky lucky students.


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