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1759 posts

Uber Geek
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  #2030909 6-Jun-2018 14:35
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rjt123: And that decision was made by the same government who also made this decision:

Oil and Gas ban likely to increase emissions.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/06/05/113361/ban-likely-to-increase-emissions

Sometimes you wonder if they've already legalized cannabis in the beehive?

 

They are an extremely clever and cohesive lot in Cabinet. Oh wait, I read somewhere Cabinet doesnt make decisions anymore.


5434 posts

Uber Geek


  #2031268 7-Jun-2018 09:57
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The capitalism socialism debate I think has largely been resolved.  Pure application of either is generally disastrous.  You need both.  Socialist initiatives like health, housing and education support capitalism, by improving human capability.  Capitalism provides money to fund those things.

 

Unless you are willing to borrow, you need someone to make the money first.

 

Debate and contest for the middle vote always seems to be about the balance between capital vs social. 

 

If you compare Labour vs National on implementation, there is a narrower margin of difference, than ideology.





Mike

 
 
 
 


1199 posts

Uber Geek
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  #2031288 7-Jun-2018 10:32
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MikeAqua:

 

The capitalism socialism debate I think has largely been resolved.  Pure application of either is generally disastrous.  You need both.  Socialist initiatives like health, housing and education support capitalism, by improving human capability.  Capitalism provides money to fund those things.

 

Unless you are willing to borrow, you need someone to make the money first.

 

Debate and contest for the middle vote always seems to be about the balance between capital vs social. 

 

If you compare Labour vs National on implementation, there is a narrower margin of difference, than ideology.

 

 

Unfortunately our PM would disagree. She calls capitalism a "blatant failure". She fits nicely into the anti-capitalist camp which is really disastrous IMO. Most Kiwis fit somewhere in the middle and I am not of the opinion that this Labour government is very comfortable in that middle space.

 

 

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  #2031297 7-Jun-2018 10:40
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Wiggum:

 

MikeAqua:

 

The capitalism socialism debate I think has largely been resolved.  Pure application of either is generally disastrous.  You need both.  Socialist initiatives like health, housing and education support capitalism, by improving human capability.  Capitalism provides money to fund those things.

 

Unless you are willing to borrow, you need someone to make the money first.

 

Debate and contest for the middle vote always seems to be about the balance between capital vs social. 

 

If you compare Labour vs National on implementation, there is a narrower margin of difference, than ideology.

 

 

Unfortunately our PM would disagree. She calls capitalism a "blatant failure". She fits nicely into the anti-capitalist camp which is really disastrous IMO. Most Kiwis fit somewhere in the middle and I am not of the opinion that this Labour government is very comfortable in that middle space.

 

 

 

 

 

I consider myself a capitalist-Socialist. Capitalism its self is a failure as is socialism on its own is a failure. The two combined with an emphasis on socialism is the best.imho





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1759 posts

Uber Geek
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  #2031331 7-Jun-2018 11:22
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MikeB4:

 

Wiggum:

 

MikeAqua:

 

The capitalism socialism debate I think has largely been resolved.  Pure application of either is generally disastrous.  You need both.  Socialist initiatives like health, housing and education support capitalism, by improving human capability.  Capitalism provides money to fund those things.

 

Unless you are willing to borrow, you need someone to make the money first.

 

Debate and contest for the middle vote always seems to be about the balance between capital vs social. 

 

If you compare Labour vs National on implementation, there is a narrower margin of difference, than ideology.

 

 

Unfortunately our PM would disagree. She calls capitalism a "blatant failure". She fits nicely into the anti-capitalist camp which is really disastrous IMO. Most Kiwis fit somewhere in the middle and I am not of the opinion that this Labour government is very comfortable in that middle space.

 

 

 

 

 

I consider myself a capitalist-Socialist. Capitalism its self is a failure as is socialism on its own is a failure. The two combined with an emphasis on socialism is the best.imho

 

 

Capitalism isnt a failure, if there are sufficient rules to protect the innocent and those that cannot help themselves.


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  #2031346 7-Jun-2018 11:28
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I don't consider the boom and bust economics of capitalism a success nor do I consider the deliberate inequality, poverty and elitism of capitalism as success. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #2031360 7-Jun-2018 11:49
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MikeB4:

I don't consider the boom and bust economics of capitalism a success nor do I consider the deliberate inequality, poverty and elitism of capitalism as success. 



Conversely the disincetivisation ( is that even a real word...?🤷‍♂️) of socialism will always result in a lower, even if more equal, standard of living, which must be considered a failure in comparison to capitalism. Human nature is to get ahead, to progress, thus socialism will never work. While capitalism mixed with a few select principles of socialism is good, every step towards it reduces the output and long term wellbeing of the country

 
 
 
 


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  #2031367 7-Jun-2018 12:00
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The Nordic variation of socialism has been successful.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1199 posts

Uber Geek
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  #2031369 7-Jun-2018 12:07
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Socialism Made Simple 

An economics professor said he had never failed a 
single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. 
That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one 
would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said okay, we will have an experiment in this
class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone
would receive the same grade, so no one would fail and no one
would receive an ‘A’.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a ‘B’.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who
studied little were happy.

But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little
had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they
wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second test
average was a ‘D’!

No one was happy.

 

When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an ‘F’.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name-calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of 
anyone else. 

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that
socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is
great, the effort to succeed is great; But when government takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.


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Ultimate Geek
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  #2031370 7-Jun-2018 12:09
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Food for thought...

"... Despite this impressive fall, Finland's suicide rates remain one of the highest in the OECD. In 2011, the suicide rate per 100,000 population was 16.4, with a particularly high prevalence of suicide amongst young male adults, compared to an OECD average of 12.4."

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  #2031374 7-Jun-2018 12:20
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rjt123: Food for thought...

"... Despite this impressive fall, Finland's suicide rates remain one of the highest in the OECD. In 2011, the suicide rate per 100,000 population was 16.4, with a particularly high prevalence of suicide amongst young male adults, compared to an OECD average of 12.4."

 

 

 

Where is the link between that and the system of government?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


14661 posts

Uber Geek

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  #2031375 7-Jun-2018 12:21
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Wiggum:

 

Socialism Made Simple 

An economics professor said he had never failed a 
single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. 
That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one 
would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said okay, we will have an experiment in this
class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone
would receive the same grade, so no one would fail and no one
would receive an ‘A’.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a ‘B’.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who
studied little were happy.

But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little
had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they
wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second test
average was a ‘D’!

No one was happy.

 

When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an ‘F’.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name-calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of 
anyone else. 

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that
socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is
great, the effort to succeed is great; But when government takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.

 

 

what is the source of the copy and paste?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1199 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #2031376 7-Jun-2018 12:22
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rjt123: Food for thought...

"... Despite this impressive fall, Finland's suicide rates remain one of the highest in the OECD. In 2011, the suicide rate per 100,000 population was 16.4, with a particularly high prevalence of suicide amongst young male adults, compared to an OECD average of 12.4."

 

It must be those ridiculous tax rates that the Finns have to deal with.

 

VAT at 24%, and those ridiculous income tax rates are enough to make anybody depressed.

 

 

517 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  #2031377 7-Jun-2018 12:22
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MikeB4:

rjt123: Food for thought...

"... Despite this impressive fall, Finland's suicide rates remain one of the highest in the OECD. In 2011, the suicide rate per 100,000 population was 16.4, with a particularly high prevalence of suicide amongst young male adults, compared to an OECD average of 12.4."


 


Where is the link between that and the system of government?



Form your own conclusions...

1199 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #2031380 7-Jun-2018 12:24
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MikeB4:

 

what is the source of the copy and paste?

 

 

Its a joke I heard years ago. Still valid today.

 

If I ever could have the privilege of meeting with Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern I would love to ask her the following questions:

 

  • Why do socialist regimes often find it necessary to prevent its citizens from leaving the country, whereas capitalist countries never do?
  • What is the difference between socialism and slavery? In both cases someone else is making all the decisions and forcing you to live your life in a particular way? (In other words in both cases there is no freedom).
  • To what extent should a person have private property?
  • If you despise capitalism so much, why not create separate communities (with other like-minded individuals) within our country, You are free to do so? (Note that the reverse is impossible).
  • Should distribution of wealth be decided by an elite few, or by the majority?
  • On what basis do you maintain that I am my brother’s keeper? What moral grounds give me the right to force any other human to live for my own sake?
  • Why is there always a net emigration out of socialist counties into capitalist countries?

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