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517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #1953727 8-Feb-2018 16:37
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Fred99:

 

Yes - but the free first year of tertiary education (then later years 2 and 3) isn't limited to tertiary academic study at University, but specifically targeted at trades & NZ Diploma/Certificate level study at polytechnics, through ITOs etc.

 

 

I wouldn't use the phrase "specifically targeted" in relation to their free tertiary education scheme. 

 

That's it's greatest flaw.


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Ultimate Geek


  #1953931 8-Feb-2018 22:25
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rjt123:

 

I wouldn't use the phrase "specifically targeted" in relation to their free tertiary education scheme. 

 

That's it's greatest flaw.

 

 

 

 

You're right. There is no specific target, just "tertiary education" in general. No strategy, nothing.... just spraying cash around at the tertiary education system which is already poorly equipped to help those with learning difficulties emerging from secondary education.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1953964 8-Feb-2018 22:50
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wsnz:

 

rjt123:

 

I wouldn't use the phrase "specifically targeted" in relation to their free tertiary education scheme. 

 

That's it's greatest flaw.

 

 

 

 

You're right. There is no specific target, just "tertiary education" in general. No strategy, nothing.... just spraying cash around at the tertiary education system which is already poorly equipped to help those with learning difficulties emerging from secondary education.

 

 

 

 

No it's not.


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Ultimate Geek


  #1953970 8-Feb-2018 23:01
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Fred99:

 

No it's not.

 

 

 

 

"From 1 January 2018 all New Zealand students who finish school in 2017, or will finish school during 2018, qualify for a year of free provider based tertiary education or industry training."

 

"Can be used for any training, apprenticeship or higher education approved by NZQA and can be used for full-time or part-time study."

 

 

 

How is that targeted?


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  #1953975 8-Feb-2018 23:14
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wsnz:

 

Fred99:

 

No it's not.

 

 

 

 

"From 1 January 2018 all New Zealand students who finish school in 2017, or will finish school during 2018, qualify for a year of free provider based tertiary education or industry training."

 

"Can be used for any training, apprenticeship or higher education approved by NZQA and can be used for full-time or part-time study."

 

 

 

How is that targeted?

 

 

 

 

My comment was in reply to your statement that " just spraying cash around at the tertiary education system which is already poorly equipped to help those with learning difficulties emerging from secondary education".

 

That is simply not correct - as state polytechnics etc are well resourced to provide foundation-level support for school leavers (if not so much for adults these days).  And to gain entry into courses, students would still need to meet standards.

 

"Targeted" was perhaps not the best way I could have put it, but one example is that for trade training etc, "fee free" commences now with two years funding, as opposed to one year for academic study. 

 

 


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  #1953979 8-Feb-2018 23:47
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Fred99:

 

6FIEND:

 

However, a significant portion of our poverty-stricken population would struggle to meet the (retired) National Standards for the final year of PRIMARY School.  Let alone Secondary school. 

 

 

 

 

Yes - but the free first year of tertiary education (then later years 2 and 3) isn't limited to tertiary academic study at University, but specifically targeted at trades & NZ Diploma/Certificate level study at polytechnics, through ITOs etc.
They also have considerable free support services available for people who've failed (or you could say "have been failed by") the school system.

 

I do think that there's an issue with the school system - some teachers consider themselves to be academics, thus "above" mere peasants, thus aren't very interested in promoting non-academic study and career options. Many of the 50% of students with below average performance tend to write themselves off, with that often reinforced by a system that doesn't seem to give a sh*t.  I'm aware that many scholarships on offer - specifically to lend a helping-hand to disadvantaged students - were not being taken up, probably because the schools didn't really give a damn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do they not have carpentry, metalwork, boat building, art, jewellery making and that kind of thing available in schools here?






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Ultimate Geek


  #1954108 9-Feb-2018 09:48
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Fred99:

 

My comment was in reply to your statement that " just spraying cash around at the tertiary education system which is already poorly equipped to help those with learning difficulties emerging from secondary education".

 

That is simply not correct - as state polytechnics etc are well resourced to provide foundation-level support for school leavers (if not so much for adults these days).  And to gain entry into courses, students would still need to meet standards.

 

"Targeted" was perhaps not the best way I could have put it, but one example is that for trade training etc, "fee free" commences now with two years funding, as opposed to one year for academic study. 

 

 

 

 

Firstly a disclaimer. I have worked in the tertiary education sector for many years under various roles, ranging from the delivery through to management, and dealt with the effects of both Labour and National's policies in the sector.

 

 

 

I disagree that institutions are well funded. The entire sector struggles to sufficiently resource such 'foundation level' support right across the spectrum, from public to private institutions, and from trades courses/apprenticeships to universities. On a relative basis, there is very little funding available from the central government (predominantly the TEC) for such courses, let alone funding for dedicated numeracy/literacy tutors. While standards must be met for entry into some but not all institutions, these do not provide a sufficient filtering mechanism to determine whether an individual will be successful in their chosen qualification. We see high-school students who have achieved high levels of the NCEA framework that still lack basic logic and reasoning skills, or the ability to write in-depth critical analysis on topics for more than a few hundred words. 

 

 

 

Free education is not directly correlated with higher educational achievement. There are other confounding variables at play, which is why I am so critical of Labour's tertiary education policy.


 
 
 
 


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  #1954133 9-Feb-2018 10:38
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wsnz:

 

Fred99:

 

My comment was in reply to your statement that " just spraying cash around at the tertiary education system which is already poorly equipped to help those with learning difficulties emerging from secondary education".

 

That is simply not correct - as state polytechnics etc are well resourced to provide foundation-level support for school leavers (if not so much for adults these days).  And to gain entry into courses, students would still need to meet standards.

 

"Targeted" was perhaps not the best way I could have put it, but one example is that for trade training etc, "fee free" commences now with two years funding, as opposed to one year for academic study. 

 

 

 

 

Firstly a disclaimer. I have worked in the tertiary education sector for many years under various roles, ranging from the delivery through to management, and dealt with the effects of both Labour and National's policies in the sector.

 

 

 

I disagree that institutions are well funded. The entire sector struggles to sufficiently resource such 'foundation level' support right across the spectrum, from public to private institutions, and from trades courses/apprenticeships to universities. On a relative basis, there is very little funding available from the central government (predominantly the TEC) for such courses, let alone funding for dedicated numeracy/literacy tutors. While standards must be met for entry into some but not all institutions, these do not provide a sufficient filtering mechanism to determine whether an individual will be successful in their chosen qualification. We see high-school students who have achieved high levels of the NCEA framework that still lack basic logic and reasoning skills, or the ability to write in-depth critical analysis on topics for more than a few hundred words. 

 

 

 

Free education is not directly correlated with higher educational achievement. There are other confounding variables at play, which is why I am so critical of Labour's tertiary education policy.

 

 

Every government funded institution struggles whether its education or health or whatever. It is the way its designed. The more the Government pumps into them the more they spend and the more they want.

 

As far as the students go...that lolly scramble was just absurd. First week of new Government and out of the blue it came. There was no planning or consultation. Sure the fees part was part of an election bribe, but the extra $50/week was just simply unusual.


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  #1954191 9-Feb-2018 12:00
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Pumpedd:

 

networkn:

 

I believe that tenancy rules in NZ are massively lopsided. There are bad landlords and bad tenants. It's almost freaking impossible to get out of a bad situation as a landlord, without significant cost, but it's much easier to get out of a bad rental situation along with punitive financial repercussions for the errant landlord. 

 

Whilst I would say in some cases the tenant is more vulnerable, there are next to no repercussions of being a bad tenant in NZ.

 

 

 

 

Actually the repercussions are that they lose their bond which can be quite significant. Landlords also have courts and tribunals available. Landlords should also put in place a more frequent inspection regime.

 

 

Give me a break. Bond could be $2000, which would be lucky to cover even minor damage, let alone rent arrears etc. 

 

Secondly, a fair number of these people get their bond from WINZ, so it's actually the Government who is paying. 

 

Beyond that, there is no point in Landlords chasing people with no decency or no money as the time spent well exceeds the value likely to be recovered.

 

 


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  #1954197 9-Feb-2018 12:13
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networkn:

 

Pumpedd:

 

networkn:

 

I believe that tenancy rules in NZ are massively lopsided. There are bad landlords and bad tenants. It's almost freaking impossible to get out of a bad situation as a landlord, without significant cost, but it's much easier to get out of a bad rental situation along with punitive financial repercussions for the errant landlord. 

 

Whilst I would say in some cases the tenant is more vulnerable, there are next to no repercussions of being a bad tenant in NZ.

 

 

 

 

Actually the repercussions are that they lose their bond which can be quite significant. Landlords also have courts and tribunals available. Landlords should also put in place a more frequent inspection regime.

 

 

Give me a break. Bond could be $2000, which would be lucky to cover even minor damage, let alone rent arrears etc. 

 

Secondly, a fair number of these people get their bond from WINZ, so it's actually the Government who is paying. 

 

Beyond that, there is no point in Landlords chasing people with no decency or no money as the time spent well exceeds the value likely to be recovered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were a landlord I would certainly try very hard to avoid WINZ tenants!






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  #1954217 9-Feb-2018 12:25
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Pumpedd:

 

A lot of people do not have families who can help like in your situation. If you think places like WINZ are there to help, clearly you have never been into them. A lot of todays beneficiaries are people with disabilities as our actual unemployment rate is low. These people are now critically poor because the system has been stripped over the last 9 years. People who have never been there will never be able to understand what its like to be genuinely trapped.

 

 

I didn't do much to help my family member, I gave him some information which he quite easily could have found for himself, if he didn't "feel" trapped. I would guess that most people who feel they have no options, feel this way because they are overwhemled and may have gotten some bad information at some point. Sure, hard work is a requirement for success, but I have found in life, with challenges I have faced, that breaking each challenge into smaller peices and attacking each one, one by one, is key to making it through. 

 

As for your comments on WINZ, I have had experience with WINZ, and I am well aware of the bad name they have and some of the nightmare stories that exist. My experience was they were willing to help, and I had a good account manager. I was punctual and did what I said I would, and made an effort to better myself, and as a result, was able to obtain the assistance I needed and was grateful for. By comparison, I used to see crowds of people there looking for help who simply were a nightmare to deal with. Obviously, I can't speak to the personal circumstances of each person, but very few looked like they were making an effort, many many were demanding and rude and refused to comply with basic and what I'd consider, reasonable requests.

 

NZ is a very socialist country. There are SO many ways to get help here. Most however, probably expect you will make an effort not to make the same mistakes over and over, and to make a genuine effort to do something to help yourself over a period of time. 

 

I think once upon a time when you were getting "help" you were expected to cut every expense and budgets didn't allow for any life enjoyment. Most budgetary help systems, will set aside some money for "luxuries" even if that's a packet of smokes or something, because they understand that like dieting you can't sustain good eating habits with no leniency. 

 

That isn't being glib. I have personal experience.

 

 


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  #1954301 9-Feb-2018 13:18
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Geektastic:

 

Do they not have carpentry, metalwork, boat building, art, jewellery making and that kind of thing available in schools here?

 

 

Metalwork, woodwork etc are taught in schools and things like 3-D printing.  Some schools have Trade Academies, which take kids through trade qualifications up to the pre-trade certificate or whatever it is called today.

 

Great idea for kids who aren't pursuing an academic pathway after they leave school.

 

 





Mike

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  #1954370 9-Feb-2018 14:29
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MikeAqua:

 

Geektastic:

 

Do they not have carpentry, metalwork, boat building, art, jewellery making and that kind of thing available in schools here?

 

 

Metalwork, woodwork etc are taught in schools and things like 3-D printing.  Some schools have Trade Academies, which take kids through trade qualifications up to the pre-trade certificate or whatever it is called today.

 

Great idea for kids who aren't pursuing an academic pathway after they leave school.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK. So how come @Fred99 said

 

 

 

"I do think that there's an issue with the school system - some teachers consider themselves to be academics, thus "above" mere peasants, thus aren't very interested in promoting non-academic study and career options."

 

 

 

It sounds like those options are there (as they should be).  Is it just a question of people not taking them up for some reason? I would expect the reverse given that one regular criticism I have seen in articles about "what is bad in NZ" is usually something alluding to the anti-intellectualism problem, which I would read to suggest that people regard blue collar employment as somehow more valid.






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  #1954389 9-Feb-2018 14:58
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networkn:

 

Pumpedd:

 

A lot of people do not have families who can help like in your situation. If you think places like WINZ are there to help, clearly you have never been into them. A lot of todays beneficiaries are people with disabilities as our actual unemployment rate is low. These people are now critically poor because the system has been stripped over the last 9 years. People who have never been there will never be able to understand what its like to be genuinely trapped.

 

 

I didn't do much to help my family member, I gave him some information which he quite easily could have found for himself, if he didn't "feel" trapped. I would guess that most people who feel they have no options, feel this way because they are overwhemled and may have gotten some bad information at some point. Sure, hard work is a requirement for success, but I have found in life, with challenges I have faced, that breaking each challenge into smaller peices and attacking each one, one by one, is key to making it through. 

 

As for your comments on WINZ, I have had experience with WINZ, and I am well aware of the bad name they have and some of the nightmare stories that exist. My experience was they were willing to help, and I had a good account manager. I was punctual and did what I said I would, and made an effort to better myself, and as a result, was able to obtain the assistance I needed and was grateful for. By comparison, I used to see crowds of people there looking for help who simply were a nightmare to deal with. Obviously, I can't speak to the personal circumstances of each person, but very few looked like they were making an effort, many many were demanding and rude and refused to comply with basic and what I'd consider, reasonable requests.

 

NZ is a very socialist country. There are SO many ways to get help here. Most however, probably expect you will make an effort not to make the same mistakes over and over, and to make a genuine effort to do something to help yourself over a period of time. 

 

I think once upon a time when you were getting "help" you were expected to cut every expense and budgets didn't allow for any life enjoyment. Most budgetary help systems, will set aside some money for "luxuries" even if that's a packet of smokes or something, because they understand that like dieting you can't sustain good eating habits with no leniency. 

 

That isn't being glib. I have personal experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the cost of rent and power there is no allowance for luxuries and there is no real allowance for food, clothing and medical. In the years spent assisting folks with budgets I have never felt so helpless as I have in the last 6 years. When someone has three pennies to pay 3 pennies for rent there is not a forth penny no matter how skilled the budgeter is.

 

 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  #1954396 9-Feb-2018 15:06
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

A lot of people do not have families who can help like in your situation. If you think places like WINZ are there to help, clearly you have never been into them. A lot of todays beneficiaries are people with disabilities as our actual unemployment rate is low. These people are now critically poor because the system has been stripped over the last 9 years. People who have never been there will never be able to understand what its like to be genuinely trapped.

 

 

 

 

Work and Income are there to help and do help within the boundaries set by Cabinet. The staff have discretion in very few areas as entitlement is exactly prescribed in the Act of Parliament. There are some discretionary provisions with in the Act(s) but the discretion must be applied in accordance with the Ministerial approved policy.

 

If you were to ask any MSD or Work and Income staff member if they would like more discretion they would reply "hell yes" but that is not their decision to make.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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