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  # 2161510 15-Jan-2019 12:53
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Err, read more than one word. The "statistician may" gives the power of discretion to them, not you…

 

You funny.

 

The issue is not about who has “the power of discretion.” The issue is about conflating what is required, with what is voluntary.

 

We all know the proper definition of census.  The additional questions glammed onto the “NZ census” share nothing with the definition of census.  Caesar is counting on you to not perform due diligence and just cave in and suck it up.  Most do just that.

 

Seasonally timed articles (and selective prosecutions), like the one linked in this forum about the guy who was taken to court because he failed to answer “the census,” are just so much FEAR PORN designed to keep you ignorant and, above all, fearfully compliant. We are never told WHICH questions (the legally required census questions, or the additional non-census questions) the man failed to answer, and WE NEVER WILL BE TOLD, for to do so would reveal the “NZ census” as the sham it is.

 

Referring back to my opening post here:

 

The answer to the census question can be viewed in two parts: 1) What is the definition of “census,” and 2) Who is required to participate.

 

Obviously, most understand the second part, but few understand the first.

 

From the fear-based responses here, it is obvious that the herd mentality still reigns re the NZ census.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share why I don’t answer any of Caesar’s non-census-related questions. I will respond to any relevant and decent comments; otherwise, I now leave this thread.


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  # 2161550 15-Jan-2019 14:05
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doctrox:

 

... I now leave this thread.

 

 

Thank you for the small pieces of amusement amongst your boring diatribe.





"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." -  Stephen Hawking


 
 
 
 


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  # 2161701 15-Jan-2019 18:21
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doctrox:

 

The issue is not about who has “the power of discretion.” The issue is about conflating what is required, with what is voluntary.

 

 

None of it is voluntary.

 

doctrox:

 

We all know the proper definition of census.  The additional questions glammed onto the “NZ census” share nothing with the definition of census.  Caesar is counting on you to not perform due diligence and just cave in and suck it up.  Most do just that.

 

 

It doesn't become suddenly not applicable because you say it is, that's just insane sovereign citizen talk. Refer to section 24 of the Statistics Act:

 

At any census of population and dwellings, the Statistician may, if he considers it in the public interest so to do, obtain from every occupier or person in charge of a dwelling particulars relating to all or any of the following additional matters:

 

(a) the profession or occupation and industry in which employed, nationality and citizenship, health, marital condition, religion, birthplace, duration of residence in New Zealand, address where living at previous census or previous year, number of children, number of hours worked per week for wages or salary or financial reward, status in employment, name and address of employer, mode of transport to and from work, time taken to travel to work, income, address of usual residence, and service in the armed forces of every occupant of the dwelling:

 

(b) particulars of the dwelling as to type and tenure of dwelling and nature of materials of structure, household amenities, rent paid, and details of any livestock:

 

(c) any information relating to the kinds of statistics for which information may be required pursuant to section 4 or as may be prescribed by regulations under this Act.

 

Oh look. A circular reference to section 4. Let's go read that:

 

Information may be required of any person in a position to provide it to enable the production of official statistics of any or all of the following kinds:

 

Ah. So the statistician may legally require any person to provide any information listed in section 4 (Official Statistics) provided they can do so along with the census.

 

doctrox:

 

Seasonally timed articles (and selective prosecutions), like the one linked in this forum about the guy who was taken to court because he failed to answer “the census,” are just so much FEAR PORN designed to keep you ignorant and, above all, fearfully compliant. We are never told WHICH questions (the legally required census questions, or the additional non-census questions) the man failed to answer, and WE NEVER WILL BE TOLD, for to do so would reveal the “NZ census” as the sham it is.

 

ALL OF THE QUESTIONS are legally required. It's in the legislation. You can't just say "it is not" because you don't like the answer.

 

doctrox:

 

Referring back to my opening post here:

 

The answer to the census question can be viewed in two parts: 1) What is the definition of “census,” and 2) Who is required to participate.

 

 

The dictionary definition of census is irrelevant, because the legislation describes what the legal definition of census is. It also describes what questions can be required in addition to the census of dwellings.

 

 

 

doctrox:

 

Obviously, most understand the second part, but few understand the first.

 

From the fear-based responses here, it is obvious that the herd mentality still reigns re the NZ census.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share why I don’t answer any of Caesar’s non-census-related questions. I will respond to any relevant and decent comments; otherwise, I now leave this thread.

 

 

By which you mean you will respond only to people who don't point out how utterly flawed your argument is, and how it has no basis in reality. With that, I would implore the moderating team to simply sledgehammer this soapbox.

 

And for the love of all that's holy, this is not the Ancient Roman Empire. Caesar has been dead thousands of years, and any talk of such an entity has no relevance to 2019 New Zealand.


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  # 2161745 15-Jan-2019 20:01
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Not everything is a conspiracy theory that you can marry as that's cool to do.

 

Many successful businesses have management tools so they can make good decisions. The Census is just another tool, no more, no less. 




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  # 2172718 4-Feb-2019 13:21
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It doesn’t become suddenly not applicable because you say it is...

 

Again, I didn’t “say it is” – Caesar’s own law says it. As I pointed out at the onset, this bit highlights the dastardly shall vs may conflation.

 

...that’s just insane sovereign citizen talk.

 

I do understand why you react the way you do. Like most, you know that something’s not quite right here, with the invasive questions and fear-mongering public relations inherent with the NZ census. But you don’t know exactly what. Such misery loves company, and most believe that there’s safety in numbers (pun intended). Still, no one would claim that they enjoy answering the invasive non-census questions. However, in the absence of the truth, it’s simply easier to kill the messenger.

 

So I’m not surprised at your “insane sovereign citizen” slur (and others), and I forgive you unconditionally.

 

So the statistician may legally require any person to provide any information listed in section 4 (Official Statistics) provided they can do so along with the census.

 

Firstly, your statement admits your awareness that there are indeed two issues here: 1) “any information” (the invasive non-census stuff we all detest), and 2) “along with the census” itself.

 

Secondly, you’ve misquoted Caesar’s Act, i.e. the word “legally” does not appear. Rather, it simply states, “Information may be required...” And again, may denotes permission. To confirm, contrast this “may” with the “shall” that is found a few lines above your citation, in Section 3(1). Caesar has thus given his subjects full disclosure of his conflation of the census with other non-census information. You’ll find Caesar often applies this contrast of shall vs may throughout his Act at such critical junctures, so those who are less than diligent will remain without remedy.

 

The dictionary definition of census is irrelevant, because the legislation describes what the legal definition of census is. It also describes what questions can be required in addition to the census of dwellings.

 

Again, you’ve misquoted the Act. Nowhere does the Act claim to state the legal definition of “census.” Rather, in the Act (and in all PR pieces such as the census FAQ’s), it clearly and simply declares the dictionary definition of census i.e. “people and dwellings” and nothing more. Buyer beware.

 

BTW, the “dictionary definition” of census is absolutely essential to the drafters of the Act. Without it, there is no basis at law for ANYTHING that would follow. IOW, an invention cannot do away with its inventor, lest the invention lose its warrant to exist.

 

...I would implore the moderating team to simply sledgehammer this soapbox.

 

Of course you would. Outside of seeking truth, it’s your only option.

 

Caesar has been dead thousands of years...

 

If you’ll go back and re-read, you’ll rediscover why I use that convenient term. But for the sake of the less-motivated, I’ll restate: Caesar (and all the Caesar’s) were, and remain, representative of man’s Godless government to which the majority then, and even today, have submitted.

 

If we shall refrain from the fierce invectives and character assassination attempts, we may yet uncover further truths...

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

 


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  # 2173773 6-Feb-2019 00:35
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doctrox:

 

Again, I didn’t “say it is” – Caesar’s own law says it. As I pointed out at the onset, this bit highlights the dastardly shall vs may conflation.

 

 

Again, Caesar has been dead thousands of years. There is no Caesar in New Zealand.

 

Further, once again, the Statistics Act does not back you up at all. There is no "dastardly shall vs may conflation" except the one in your head - the Statistician may (as in, has the option to choose to) require (the word require is used, not request) the information specified in Section 4, which is actually a massive list which is quite extensive. The statistician actually requests significantly less information than the law permits them to request.

 

 

I do understand why you react the way you do. Like most, you know that something’s not quite right here, with the invasive questions and fear-mongering public relations inherent with the NZ census. But you don’t know exactly what. Such misery loves company, and most believe that there’s safety in numbers (pun intended). Still, no one would claim that they enjoy answering the invasive non-census questions. However, in the absence of the truth, it’s simply easier to kill the messenger.

 

So I’m not surprised at your “insane sovereign citizen” slur (and others), and I forgive you unconditionally.

 

 

Oh yes, something is not right. Everything you have said (apart from the fact that something is not right - it's the first correct thing you've said). I do not require nor accept your forgiveness for being right.

 

 

Firstly, your statement admits your awareness that there are indeed two issues here: 1) “any information” (the invasive non-census stuff we all detest), and 2) “along with the census” itself.

 

Secondly, you’ve misquoted Caesar’s Act, i.e. the word “legally” does not appear. Rather, it simply states, “Information may be required...” And again, may denotes permission. To confirm, contrast this “may” with the “shall” that is found a few lines above your citation, in Section 3(1). Caesar has thus given his subjects full disclosure of his conflation of the census with other non-census information. You’ll find Caesar often applies this contrast of shall vs may throughout his Act at such critical junctures, so those who are less than diligent will remain without remedy.

 

 

What is this silliness? First, again, no I have not misquoted the act. But you have totally misinterpreted it. "May" does not "denote permission". It gives the statistician the option to require, or not (the word require appears in the act, so don't go pulling some rubbish out claiming that it only permits the statistician to request information, please), any of the massive list of information stated in section four. At no point does it permit the respondent to choose not to answer it - it is explicitly mandatory.

 

 

Again, you’ve misquoted the Act. Nowhere does the Act claim to state the legal definition of “census.” Rather, in the Act (and in all PR pieces such as the census FAQ’s), it clearly and simply declares the dictionary definition of census i.e. “people and dwellings” and nothing more. Buyer beware.

 

BTW, the “dictionary definition” of census is absolutely essential to the drafters of the Act. Without it, there is no basis at law for ANYTHING that would follow. IOW, an invention cannot do away with its inventor, lest the invention lose its warrant to exist.

 

 

No, again, I have not misquoted the act. And you continue to be wrong, as the definition of words used in legislation is not in the English dictionary, it is in the Law Dictionary. The Butterworth's Law Dictionary to be exact. There is no "buyer beware", apart from anyone silly enough to buy into this rubbish about the census being optional because something something Ancient Rome. As the Butterworth's Law Dictionary is not available freely (short of a trip to the State Library) I shall resort to the Black's Dictionary, which anyone with legal background from the US will be familiar with (as it bases itself in Ancient Roman law - IRONY! - the British Empire will have inherited a similar definition): "Census - the official counting or enumeration of the people of a state or nation, with statistics of wealth, commerce, education, etc. Huntington v. Cast, 149 Ind. 255, 48 N. E. 1025; Republic v. Paris, 10 Hawaii, 581. In Roman law. A numbering or enrollment of the people, with a valuation of their fortunes. In old European law. A tax, or tribute; a toll. Montesq. Esprit des Lois, liv. 30, c. 14."

 

You'll notice it details a lot more than just the number of people, because that's what a census is. By law.

 

 

Of course you would. Outside of seeking truth, it’s your only option.

 

 

What rubbish. I have the truth, it is you who refuses to accept it and simply not just moves the goal posts, but installs them in a totally different stadium when truth is provided to you!

 

 

If you’ll go back and re-read, you’ll rediscover why I use that convenient term. But for the sake of the less-motivated, I’ll restate: Caesar (and all the Caesar’s) were, and remain, representative of man’s Godless government to which the majority then, and even today, have submitted.

 

 

No, Caesar was the ruler of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire collapsed thousands of years ago. Caesar is a representative of nothing more than a dead empire.

 

 

If we shall refrain from the fierce invectives and character assassination attempts, we may yet uncover further truths...

 

 

There are no truths to uncover, unless you mean the one which you refuse to believe where you're totally wrong.


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  # 2173801 6-Feb-2019 09:03
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Doctorx: But for the sake of the less-motivated, I’ll restate: Caesar (and all the Caesar’s) were, and remain, representative of man’s Godless government to which the majority then, and even today, have submitted.

If you don't mind my asking, which denomination do you belong to?

 
 
 
 


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  # 2173804 6-Feb-2019 09:17
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gzt:
Doctorx: But for the sake of the less-motivated, I’ll restate: Caesar (and all the Caesar’s) were, and remain, representative of man’s Godless government to which the majority then, and even today, have submitted.

If you don't mind my asking, which denomination do you belong to?


In the Census that is the one question to which you can reply "Object" if you don't want to answer it.

gzt

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  # 2173812 6-Feb-2019 09:31
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Bung:
gzt:
Doctorx: But for the sake of the less-motivated, I’ll restate: Caesar (and all the Caesar’s) were, and remain, representative of man’s Godless government to which the majority then, and even today, have submitted.

If you don't mind my asking, which denomination do you belong to?


In the Census that is the one question to which you can reply "Object" if you don't want to answer it.

Lol. Didn't know that!

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  # 2173814 6-Feb-2019 09:41
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I have always wondered why people object to filling out the name of their religion. Surely, if you believe in a god, or gods, then you should be happy to declare it?

 

For the record, I am Catholic.


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  # 2173824 6-Feb-2019 09:50
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Not saying whether it's justified or not, but: fear of discrimination? 


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  # 2173862 6-Feb-2019 11:53
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@doctrox Did you fill out the US census in Hawaii when you lived there?



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  # 2175037 8-Feb-2019 13:12
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The guy inserts his own word into the Act (e.g. “legally”), and then denies he has misquoted the Act. Sadly, he’s been shifted to my ignore list.

 

Make no mistake, if you’re a New Zealand citizen i.e. one who is partaking of the State’s rights/benefits package (said citizen has been referred to in court cases as a “right and duty bearing unit”), then you are required to submit to its census (i.e. the “duty”); most understand that part.  But what’s at issue here is, what comprises the census?

 

If you don't mind my asking, which denomination do you belong to?

 

It’s not a religious issue. But I do understand why people call on religion to help them resolve their uncertainties.  BTW, religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ.

 

In the Census that is the one question to which you can reply "Object" if you don't want to answer it.

 

Of course, as such mollycoddling usually massages the masses sufficiently to garner compliance. The problem is that it sidesteps the issue at hand (i.e. the “census”) completely.  The “Object” option involves the issue of authority.  In replying via the "Object" option, in chasing that carrot on a stick, you are still in overall submission to that authority, you have given life to that dead thing, and thus you will render in whatever manner that authority deems fit (e.g. non-census additionals).

 

@doctrox Did you fill out the US census in Hawaii when you lived there?

 

Census questions, yes; non-census questions, no.


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  # 2175112 8-Feb-2019 16:52
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doctrox:

 

The guy inserts his own word into the Act (e.g. “legally”), and then denies he has misquoted the Act. Sadly, he’s been shifted to my ignore list.

 

 

I.e. "you pointed out the glaring flaws in my stupid argument, so I am going to stick my fingers in my ears".

 

 

Make no mistake, if you’re a New Zealand citizen i.e. one who is partaking of the State’s rights/benefits package (said citizen has been referred to in court cases as a “right and duty bearing unit”), then you are required to submit to its census (i.e. the “duty”); most understand that part.  But what’s at issue here is, what comprises the census?

 

 

All of it. That's the law.

 

 

 

Of course, as such mollycoddling usually massages the masses sufficiently to garner compliance. The problem is that it sidesteps the issue at hand (i.e. the “census”) completely.  The “Object” option involves the issue of authority.  In replying via the "Object" option, in chasing that carrot on a stick, you are still in overall submission to that authority, you have given life to that dead thing, and thus you will render in whatever manner that authority deems fit (e.g. non-census additionals).

 

What rubbish. The legislation clearly states that the questions may be required of you by the statistician. There is no "given life to that dead thing".

 

 

Census questions, yes; non-census questions, no.

 

 

This again. You violated Title 13 USC Chap7 §221(a) which states "Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.", Chap5 Sub2 §121(a) stating "The Secretary shall, in the year 1980 and every 10 years thereafter, take a decennial census of population as of the first day of April of such year, which date shall be known as the "decennial census date", in such form and content as he may determine, including the use of sampling procedures and special surveys. In connection with any such census, the Secretary is authorized to obtain such other census information as necessary."

 

That's ignoring the fact that the US legislature uses the Black's Law Dictionary, for which I've already quoted the definition of Census (ironically, as determined in precedent from a case involving the state of Hawaii). 

 

Face it, the law does not back you up in any of the countries you have been in.


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