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  # 2203002 21-Mar-2019 19:42
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dc2daylight:

 

*Thumbs-down*. That is a very conceited opinion, and one based upon the emotion everyone feels at present across many different political viewpoints. One thing that most of our political parties share in common is the urgency of the need for dialogue and planning, and a prioritisation of resource redirection to address what had perhaps been swept under the proverbial rug.

 

Sometimes it may be better to not mention ones targets in an open publication if possible, and if not mandated by a legal instruction from politicians to do so. Isn't this kind of obvious though?

 

Apportioning blame to police, intelligence and even arguably power-mad social media sites is all very well, but the reality is that the petty extremists of any type need a far better education, mature development of empathy and compassion, and better leadership in their lives.

 

One factor which seems to be very common is this pattern of dis-affected working class, caucasian young males who often are having trouble in the romance and companionship department of life and are from what we euphemistically refer to as "first world countries". Testosterone with only a physical outlet - eg bodybuilding, combined with radicalisation by hidden entities online or in person, will surely often be followed by acting out eventually. Where were their role models,brothers,cousins,teachers,community leaders,peers,sisters,mothers, and few friends from earlier in life when they become so isolated and full of hatred?

 

We have a responsibility to the welfare of our 'brothers' and 'sisters', within the values framework of not only most major religions but also various humanist, ethical atheist, and also many new thought internet subculture communities. What we have to think about in the long term, is how do we gently,continually, and effectively fade out hate crimes from our societies as if they were a candle put out, though not with too fast and reactive a plan of action.

 

A reactionary solution simply won't work, as whatever is required needs properly thought out legislation, legal case law and new definitions, education, public engagement and of course the democratic process which is the bedrock of our modern civilisations - evolutionary progress and maturation.

 

 

 

 

The questions are not from me, but from those who should know, if you follow the links. Either right-wing extremists have done an extraordinarily good job of covering their tracks here, or the security services were looking in the wrong direction. In view of what has happened, that is a valid criticism.

 

I think it is a huge failing if they cannot document a single example of a right-wing terrorist investigation over the past ten years. Of course there could be ongoing matters so secret they can’t even be mentioned, but somehow I doubt that, especially in view of the cited difficulties the Muslim community apparently had getting anyone to listen to their concerns at all.

 

The security services should have known something, but apparently they didn’t. That is pretty unforgiveable unless other information emerges.

 

Of course the real issue is not apportioning blame for what cannot be put back, but preventing future outrages. I agree with you that there must be change throughout society, which must come from education, but that does not excuse people failing to do their job.

 

The time to worry about the welfare of your brothers and sisters Is when they are small children. Make sure they do not go hungry, make sure they stay in school, make sure they have decent role models, make sure they don’t get lost between the cracks. That is how to effect real change, not agonising over the love lives of frustrated adolescents.

 

A reactionary solutiuon may not change minds, but it can sure as hell prevent another tragedy.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 2203003 21-Mar-2019 19:47
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A very embarrassing blooper - with plenty of overseas press coverage:

 

The NZ Herald - Police error: Alleged Christchurch mosque terrorist charged with murdering live person

 

21 Mar, 2019 5:39pm

 



Police have apologised to a woman who was wrongly listed on court charge sheets as a murder victim of the alleged Christchurch mosque gunman.

 

The woman was connected to the shootings but is still alive.

 

When the alleged gunman appeared in court last week he faced one charge of murdering a woman. Her name was suppressed. Further charges are expected to be laid.

 

But in a new development, police have confirmed they made an error and the person listed as the murder victim is still alive.

 

A police spokesperson admitted police had made a mistake.

 

"An error was made in the charging document prepared for the first court appearance of the man charged with murder in relation to the Christchurch terror attacks.

 

"The error saw an incorrect victim name included in the charging document.

 

"We have spoken with the person incorrectly named on the charging document and apologised.

 

"The charge sheet will be amended. New Zealand Police regret this error and apologies for any harm caused by the mistake."

 

Police told media charge sheet details would be amended at the accused's next appearance on April 5.

 



This may in part explain why the police have taken so long to confirm the victims' identities, and release their bodies for burial.





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  # 2203005 21-Mar-2019 19:56
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We all interpret each others words to make a point, that is how debate works. Sometimes it's interpreted rightly sometimes its poorly written wrongly, it's going to happen.

 

Anyway on the topic of the actual ban and buy back. Yes it is possible that it could cost more. No one really knows how many guns are in New Zealand, which to me is crazy. To me it's pretty clear that some measures need to be done quickly. The Australian experience of implementing this quickly in the 90s was generally pretty positive. The first measure is the only one which has been implemented really quickly - moving all MSSA to class E. The legislation will also be done pretty quickly but we don't yet have details of the implementation. That might be a complete cock up, it might be really well done but it is more likely to be somewhere in the middle.

 

I think if the implementation is closer to this massacre there will be better levels of compliance. That's a gut feel but it seems likely to me. It's also been pretty well studied by the Thorp report so we aren't treading new ground.

 

There is definitely potential for waste and it needs to be monitored. For all the potshots that get taken at our public service they generally do a pretty good job and deliver services reasonably efficiently. This isn't the first time that this type of thing has been done so I hope they will learn from the Australian experience but we will have to see.

 

100 million is a hell of a lot of money but in the greater scheme of the government accounts it's manageable.

 

If I had a nasty burglary at home I'd probably find the money for a good security system, even if it was unplanned. I might dip into my savings, I might defer a holiday, I might put it on my mortgage. The extra expenditure wouldn't have a huge effect and I'd hope to get a good outcome. Maybe it wouldn't have the desired effect but if I felt it was the best way to manage the situation then that is what I would do. The cost  wouldn't really have a material effect on the rest of my life even if it was a short term pain. I see this the same way.

 

I think it's the right thing to do (and should have been done after the Thorpe report) and should be done in an efficient and effective way. I feel that speed of implementation is going to be important to make it effective.


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  # 2203008 21-Mar-2019 20:00
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MikeB4: I have no issue with the Government spending up to $100mil to meet these pointless rifles out of circulation.

 

What about $200M? Are you ok with it coming from other sectors spending eventually?


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  # 2203010 21-Mar-2019 20:05
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tdgeek: They need to restrict.22 or rimfire to 5 shots

 

That would ignore the realities that a) .22LR magazines available from manufacturers are almost without exception 10-shot (never heard of a 5-shot?), b) there are so many of these already distributed around the country and in use that a ban would have too much financial and political cost.


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  # 2203011 21-Mar-2019 20:06
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Sideface:

A very embarrassing blooper - with plenty of overseas press coverage:


The NZ Herald - Police error: Alleged Christchurch mosque terrorist charged with murdering live person


21 Mar, 2019 5:39pm




Police have apologised to a woman who was wrongly listed on court charge sheets as a murder victim of the alleged Christchurch mosque gunman.


The woman was connected to the shootings but is still alive.


When the alleged gunman appeared in court last week he faced one charge of murdering a woman. Her name was suppressed. Further charges are expected to be laid.


But in a new development, police have confirmed they made an error and the person listed as the murder victim is still alive.


A police spokesperson admitted police had made a mistake.


"An error was made in the charging document prepared for the first court appearance of the man charged with murder in relation to the Christchurch terror attacks.


"The error saw an incorrect victim name included in the charging document.


"We have spoken with the person incorrectly named on the charging document and apologised.


"The charge sheet will be amended. New Zealand Police regret this error and apologies for any harm caused by the mistake."


Police told media charge sheet details would be amended at the accused's next appearance on April 5.




This may in part explain why the police have taken so long to confirm the victims' identities, and release their bodies for burial.



It is possible that they have very similar names with the same dates of birth (usually 1/1/xxxx)




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 2203012 21-Mar-2019 20:07
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networkn:

 

MikeB4: I have no issue with the Government spending up to $100mil to meet these pointless rifles out of circulation.

 

What about $200M? Are you ok with it coming from other sectors spending eventually?

 

 

Yes.

 

This measure is decades overdue.

 

The longer we leave it, the more it will cost - both financially, and in terms of human bloodshed.





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  # 2203015 21-Mar-2019 20:16
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BTR:

From what I have read and understand based on reading the new legislation is that any semi automatic that has a magazine that holds MORE than 5 rounds is now classed as military style and is now requires and E Cat license to purchase until the law change phases them out.


Semi autos which hold 5 or less rounds are still legal to buy and own. Small calibre .22 rifles which hold more than 5 rounds are also still legal.


 


I don't read it as being all semi automatics weapons being banned.



You're right. As of 1500 today, all semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine that is capable of holding more than five rounds and is larger than .22 in caibre are deemed "military style semi-automatics" unless they are a shotgun with a non-detachable magazine.

Those people who currently have firearms that fit within this new classification are now breaking the law and need to contact police to hand them in. Those people who currently have legally registered mssa firearms on their E Cat license are unaffected, although government have indicated there will be further legislation coming that will change this.

Essentially this means that your average farmer can have his 10/22 or similar for pest control, and some larger calibre semi-automatic firearms are still legal as they have a non-detachable magazine. Some of the firearms used on Friday are now illegal to own on an A Cat license.

It will be interesting to see any further legislation and how it will affect those with an E Cat license - I can't see police allowing anyone to transfer their (now illegal) A Cat firearms onto an E Cat license to make them legal as you need good reason and significantly further vetting to gain E Cat - and they're not going to let a law change be a good enough reason.

I'd be happy if this was the extent of the changes, but somehow I don't think it will be.

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  # 2203017 21-Mar-2019 20:20
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networkn:

MikeB4: I have no issue with the Government spending up to $100mil to meet these pointless rifles out of circulation.


What about $200M? Are you ok with it coming from other sectors spending eventually?



If it takes that amount so be it but I doubt if it is above $100mil.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 2203018 21-Mar-2019 20:21
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Whengunlawsthreadclosed2.0


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  # 2203019 21-Mar-2019 20:23
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https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/firearms-and-safety/changes-firearms

Police » Advice » Firearms and Safety » Changes to firearms

Changes to firearms
As of 3pm 21 March 2019 changes have been made by an Order in Council to ensure the immediate safety and peace of mind of New Zealand communities.

The Order in Council [Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms) Order 2019 (link is external)] will bring two additional groups of semi-automatic firearms within the definition of a Military Style Semi-automatic (MSSA) firearm:

  • a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine (other than one designed to hold 0.22-inch or less rimfire cartridges) that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges; and

  • a semi-automatic firearm that is a shotgun and is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges.

What do I do if I have a firearm that will now be defined as a MSSA?
Police encourages any person now in unlawful possession of a firearm, as it is now classified as a MSSA, to notify Police to arrange to hand over the firearm to our custody. The transitional period allows for people to do so without facing any penalties (link is external).
...

Next steps
The Government has signalled there will be further changes made over the coming weeks to ban all military style semi-automatics and assault rifles permanently.

As Police continues to develop processes we will continue to update information on this web page.

Indicated buy-back
Government have signalled that their intention is to buy-back impacted firearms. The details of this are being worked through, and will be made available as soon as possible.

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  # 2203056 21-Mar-2019 20:31
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freitasm:

 

 

 

What is needed is to shine a light on them when this is seen.

 

 

I have got myself in trouble here, but that is my feelings. Yes, I get the gun laws and I support them, and they are not actually enough,  we have to weed these imbeciles out 


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  # 2203058 21-Mar-2019 20:39
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freitasm:

 

 

 

Could you folks go back to discuss the events - gun laws is not part of this thread.

 

 

I apologise, that last batch was my fault, upon reflection the questioning of the cost should have gone in the other thread, I'll be more careful. 

 

 


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  # 2203059 21-Mar-2019 20:40
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The other thread's been shut down, I guess because it got out of hand

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