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8465 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199570 16-Mar-2019 15:06
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Batman:

 

I just read that it took 20 mins for a response (according to witness, not an official time counter) to the shooting - I presume it was for the AOS to arrive. I think AOS response is more important than banning semi-automatics at this stage. It would have been hours for a response to certain areas.

 

 

I gather that the Linwood attack preceded the Deans Ave attack, it's probably 5-10 mins by car, the reports from the first attack coming in as he was on his way to the second.

 

I'm not sure what your expectation for readiness by an AOS squad is, I can't imagine that there are multiple teams, fully kitted-out sitting with engine idling and ready to go 24/7 - nor will there ever be (or need to be - I hope).  At the time, the reports I was getting were suggesting that there were multiple assailants in different places.

 

Yup - they do need to ban semi-automatic weapons, and they need to do it immediately.  There probably will be copycats.

 

People suggesting that a ban interferes with "their rights to enjoy" etc must accept that owning weapons designed to kill other humans, like AR15s isn't any more a "right" than owning and enjoying a machine gun or surface to air missiles for that matter, the same argument "people kill - not guns" could be applied equally.  Controls are needed and accepted anyway - so it isn't some radical notion that access to weapons should be limited based on the potential of those weapons to be used - exactly how what did happen rolled out.

 

Next I suppose we'll be hearing from alt right activists suggesting that if people in their place of worship had been armed, they'd have been able to take the assailant down...  Oh wait - that would mean arming muslims... so maybe not.




8465 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199577 16-Mar-2019 15:28
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From the other thread:

 

JohnFlower: Blaming guns is lazy. Plain and simple.

 

Who's "blaming guns"?

 

Under our existing gun laws, a person with no prior convictions and not under surveillance or suspicion of becoming a terrorist, who passed existing character vetting measures, armed himself with (probably legally purchased) a stack of weapons originally designed to kill other people in military combat, and then went and killed about 50 people in a short period of time.

 

If these types of guns aren't banned, then the only other measure that immediately springs to mind which might have prevented this, would be to make the vetting of gun license applicants so arduous and thorough, that almost nobody would be able to own a firearm anyway.


 
 
 
 


355 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2199605 16-Mar-2019 16:18
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According to the latest, the guns used were heavily modified and equipped with several things already illegal in NZ. Goodness knows how Jacinda can stop that.


4569 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199621 16-Mar-2019 16:22
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timmay556:

 

There is no need for V8's or Twin Turbo cars.

 

You would better spend your time banning Alcohol in this country, it probably kills 50 people each week due to the side effects and or drink driving etc

 

 

So no changes need to be made to gun laws whatsoever? Do I understand you correctly?


98 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  # 2199627 16-Mar-2019 16:36
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quickymart:

 

timmay556:

 

There is no need for V8's or Twin Turbo cars.

 

You would better spend your time banning Alcohol in this country, it probably kills 50 people each week due to the side effects and or drink driving etc

 

 

So no changes need to be made to gun laws whatsoever? Do I understand you correctly?

 

 

Correct. This is the first Mass killing in NZ in umpteen years, a knee-jerk reaction is not what is needed here.


1173 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199637 16-Mar-2019 16:52
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timmay556:

 

There is no need for V8's or Twin Turbo cars.

 

You would better spend your time banning Alcohol in this country, it probably kills 50 people each week due to the side effects and or drink driving etc

 

 

Fantastic, let's run with this flawed analogy. When the Group A era of road car homologation came along, and you could buy AWD Twin Turbo straight sixes that were designed to conquer Mt Panorama, manufacturers informally agreed that the road versions should have their power output limited when sold to the general public. 

 

You know... because of the potential social harm. 


98 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  # 2199649 16-Mar-2019 17:02
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GV27:

 

timmay556:

 

There is no need for V8's or Twin Turbo cars.

 

You would better spend your time banning Alcohol in this country, it probably kills 50 people each week due to the side effects and or drink driving etc

 

 

Fantastic, let's run with this flawed analogy. When the Group A era of road car homologation came along, and you could buy AWD Twin Turbo straight sixes that were designed to conquer Mt Panorama, manufacturers informally agreed that the road versions should have their power output limited when sold to the general public. 

 

You know... because of the potential social harm. 

 

 

Inane post GV27. 

 

Unfortunitly the facts look like all semis will be banned. 

 


Think, if alcohol was banned for everyone after someone drunk drove and killed....

 

 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213269


 
 
 
 


210 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

  # 2199652 16-Mar-2019 17:04
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If I read the numbers being thrown around in the media correctly, even buying back the semi autos belonging to the endorsed license holders (~15,000) would cost a significant sum of money?

 

I'm not sure if there is a legal precedent for full on confiscation in NZ without due compensation?


1173 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199655 16-Mar-2019 17:06
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timmay556:

 

Inane post GV27. 

 

Unfortunitly the facts look like all semis will be banned. 

 


Think, if alcohol was banned for everyone after someone drunk drove and killed....

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213269

 

 

Think what would happen if one dude drove drunk and killed 49 people? 

 

But yes, clearly it is my posting that is inane. 

 

Let me know how many people have to die needlessly before you might consider there to be a problem. 


98 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  # 2199656 16-Mar-2019 17:08
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GV27:

 

timmay556:

 

Inane post GV27. 

 

Unfortunitly the facts look like all semis will be banned. 

 


Think, if alcohol was banned for everyone after someone drunk drove and killed....

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213269

 

 

Think what would happen if one dude drove drunk and killed 49 people? 

 

But yes, clearly it is my posting that is inane. 

 

Let me know how many people have to die needlessly before you might consider there to be a problem. 

 

 

49 people killed by drunk drivers would be a quite year for NZ.  I am amazed that you just sit there, year after year quiet at the amount of people killed by drunk drivers. Lets not even mention the numbers killed by the cumulative effects of drinking through out their lives. 


 

 

 

In 2012, driver alcohol was a contributing factor in 73 fatal crashes, 331 serious injury crashes and 933 minor injury crashes. These crashes resulted in 93 deaths, 454 serious injuries and 1,331 minor injuries (Ministry of Transport, 2012).

 

 

 

https://www.alcohol.org.nz/resources-research/facts-and-statistics/nz-statistics/road-traffic-crashes-and-deaths


1173 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199658 16-Mar-2019 17:12
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timmay556:

 

49 people killed by drunk drivers would be a quite year for NZ.  I am amazed that you just sit there, year after year quiet at the amount of people killed by drunk drivers. Lets not even mention the numbers killed by the cumulative effects of drinking through out their lives. 

 


In 2012, driver alcohol was a contributing factor in 73 fatal crashes, 331 serious injury crashes and 933 minor injury crashes. These crashes resulted in 93 deaths, 454 serious injuries and 1,331 minor injuries (Ministry of Transport, 2012).

 

https://www.alcohol.org.nz/resources-research/facts-and-statistics/nz-statistics/road-traffic-crashes-and-deaths

 

 

Answer the question: How many people would need to die before you accepted that some reform to gun laws and ownership might be required? 


98 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  # 2199662 16-Mar-2019 17:19
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GV27:

 

timmay556:

 

49 people killed by drunk drivers would be a quite year for NZ.  I am amazed that you just sit there, year after year quiet at the amount of people killed by drunk drivers. Lets not even mention the numbers killed by the cumulative effects of drinking through out their lives. 

 


In 2012, driver alcohol was a contributing factor in 73 fatal crashes, 331 serious injury crashes and 933 minor injury crashes. These crashes resulted in 93 deaths, 454 serious injuries and 1,331 minor injuries (Ministry of Transport, 2012).

 

https://www.alcohol.org.nz/resources-research/facts-and-statistics/nz-statistics/road-traffic-crashes-and-deaths

 

 

Answer the question: How many people would need to die before you accepted that some reform to gun laws and ownership might be required? 

 

 

I see you are diverting from answering my statement. However I wont shy away from yours; It isn't a question of numbers. The simple facts are that tens of thousands of law abiding citizens enjoy firearm ownership in NZ, and have for decades. Along comes one **** head who shoots up a mosque like the chicken **** he is and now everyone else gets punished.

 

 

 

Sure, your views will get plenty of likes, shares and retweets on whatever the current social media platform is in at the moment.


196 posts

Master Geek


  # 2199665 16-Mar-2019 17:23
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timmay556:

 

I see you are diverting from answering my statement. However I wont shy away from yours; It isn't a question of numbers. The simple facts are that tens of thousands of law abiding citizens enjoy firearm ownership in NZ, and have for decades. Along comes one **** head who shoots up a mosque like the chicken **** he is and now everyone else gets punished.

 

 

 

Sure, your views will get plenty of likes, shares and retweets on whatever the current social media platform is in at the moment.

 

 

Yup. It's all too easy to say "ban this thing I don't personally have any use for".


196 posts

Master Geek


  # 2199666 16-Mar-2019 17:25
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Fred99:

 

Who's "blaming guns"?

 

Under our existing gun laws, a person with no prior convictions and not under surveillance or suspicion of becoming a terrorist, who passed existing character vetting measures, armed himself with (probably legally purchased) a stack of weapons originally designed to kill other people in military combat, and then went and killed about 50 people in a short period of time.

 

If these types of guns aren't banned, then the only other measure that immediately springs to mind which might have prevented this, would be to make the vetting of gun license applicants so arduous and thorough, that almost nobody would be able to own a firearm anyway.

 

 

To be clear AR15 military style ban != semi-auto ban. The latter is very problematic, the former, no problem, let's do it.




8465 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2199679 16-Mar-2019 17:58
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timmay556:

 

quickymart:

 

timmay556:

 

There is no need for V8's or Twin Turbo cars.

 

You would better spend your time banning Alcohol in this country, it probably kills 50 people each week due to the side effects and or drink driving etc

 

 

So no changes need to be made to gun laws whatsoever? Do I understand you correctly?

 

 

Correct. This is the first Mass killing in NZ in umpteen years, a knee-jerk reaction is not what is needed here.

 

 

Get off the grass.

 

The false equivalence argument (cars/booze) you use above is abject utter Bullsh*t.

 

As for the poor gun owners who will lose their so-called "right" to own military style semi-automatic weapons, specifically designed to kill other human beings in combat, now used to kill 50 of my innocent fellow citizens on my doorstep. It's a trivial loss of of their "right" to pleasure themselves, versus the unprecedented horrific events of yesterday - and possibility that will trigger copycat crimes of similar magnitude, I truly don't care about gun owners losing the right to own devices designed and used to kill people. It's pathetic - and a sick argument.


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