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2783 posts

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# 249308 5-May-2019 12:22
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This post is very much related to the Christchurch Mosque Shooting thread but is asking a wider question in regards to using technology post Christchurch with specific regard to Cloudflare.

 

 

 

Some of you may or may not be aware that Cloudflare protect ALL of the vile sites (such as the Chans and various other hate / white supremacist sites) that hosted and promoted the Christchurch Mosque Video during and after the attacks. The majority of those sites still host the content with zero intent to remove it.

 

The problem of providing DDoS / WAF protection to White Supremacist websites is a problem that only Cloudflare has. This is not by accident, this is by design.

 

Cloudflare have a single paragraph for an Acceptable Use Policy. Where unless it is criminal in the US (essentially copyright or child abuse) then Cloudflare don't care.

 

And even when they do receive reports they absolve themselves of all responsibility by forwarding the information onto the hosting company which often results in people being doxed and receiving targeted harassment (this includes me).

 

Ironically enough for a company who proports to support free speech, when it came crunch time they removed a site that provided support for sex workers. When other sites that hosted far more vile content remained.

 

 

 

So my question is, when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck at which point do we stop saying it's not a duck?

 

 

 

Some light reading if you want some background to Cloudflare:

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-cloudflare-helps-serve-up-hate-on-the-web

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/How-San-Francisco-s-Cloudflare-helps-serve-up-11122855.php

 

http://copyright.nova.edu/cloudflare/

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cloudflare-cybersecurity-terrorist-groups_n_5c127778e4b0835fe3277f2f

 

https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/3/18527214/8chan-poway-synagogue-shooting-christchurch-john-earnest

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018693237/anonymity-on-the-internet-and-fighting-extremism

 

https://samambreen.wordpress.com/2019/01/05/updated-dossier-on-kiwi-farms/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudflare

 

It's my view that no one should have any business dealings with Cloudflare as they have shown absolutely no interest in having any morals. The only way to have any action is to no longer fund their support of hate.

 

 

 

If you're looking for any other DDoS / WAFs that don't support terrorists or white supremacists are:

 

https://www.fastly.com

 

https://www.stackpath.com/maxcdn

 

https://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/

 

https://projectshield.withgoogle.com

 

https://www.section.io/

 

https://www.akamai.com






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1712 posts

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  # 2231138 5-May-2019 13:40
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How do you know when a site is using Cloudflare?

Does this site use Cloudflare?

Asking people not to use might be like asking people not to use Netflix.

The sex workers one looks like a law change in US that may have increased legal risk to Cloudflare.

It’s US law that needs to be looked at, I think one of my favourite web games is on Cloudflare as well, I usually only know something’s on Cloudflare when get a web page error message.



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  # 2231158 5-May-2019 14:14
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rugrat: How do you know when a site is using Cloudflare?

Does this site use Cloudflare?

Asking people not to use might be like asking people not to use Netflix.

The sex workers one looks like a law change in US that may have increased legal risk to Cloudflare.

It’s US law that needs to be looked at, I think one of my favourite web games is on Cloudflare as well, I usually only know something’s on Cloudflare when get a web page error message.

It's easy to find out by using mxtoolbox to look up. And yes Geekzone runs through Cloudflare something I have raised with Mauricio.

https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=A%3awww.geekzone.co.nz&run=toolpage





 
 
 
 


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  # 2231162 5-May-2019 14:33
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Thanks, the web game I’m playing isn’t on Cloudflare.

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  # 2231275 5-May-2019 20:08
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What do you propose? It's not like it's our choice to use Cloudflare or the other WAFs, or is it?



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  # 2231416 6-May-2019 09:54
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madduck: What do you propose? It's not like it's our choice to use Cloudflare or the other WAFs, or is it?

 

My suggestion is to make the site aware that they are giving money to Cloudflare who also happen to be the group who happily provide protection to numerous vile sites on the internet.

 

 

 

I think moving away from Cloudflare will be the only way to get any real change, as they have shown over the years they have no interest in dealing with vile content.






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  # 2231588 6-May-2019 13:04
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By suggesting that Cloudfare shouldn't be used to protect <any> site from DDOS attack, surely that's suggesting that DDOS attack is a legitimate means to sensor what <you> don't like.  I don't think that's a good way to tackle a problem.




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  # 2231596 6-May-2019 13:25
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Fred99:

 

By suggesting that Cloudfare shouldn't be used to protect <any> site from DDOS attack, surely that's suggesting that DDOS attack is a legitimate means to sensor what <you> don't like.  I don't think that's a good way to tackle a problem.

 

 

 

If you're looking for any other DDoS / WAFs that don't support terrorists or white supremacists are:

 

https://www.fastly.com

 

https://www.stackpath.com/maxcdn

 

https://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/

 

https://projectshield.withgoogle.com

 

https://www.section.io/

 

https://www.akamai.com

 






 
 
 
 


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Master Geek


  # 2231845 6-May-2019 18:05
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BarTender:

 

It's my view that no one should have any business dealings with Cloudflare as they have shown absolutely no interest in having any morals.

 

 

That is exactly why I will support Cloudflare. CDNs, service providers and transit providers imposing their morals on the internet is the opposite of good.




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  # 2231884 6-May-2019 19:15
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Tracer:

BarTender:


It's my view that no one should have any business dealings with Cloudflare as they have shown absolutely no interest in having any morals.



That is exactly why I will support Cloudflare. CDNs, service providers and transit providers imposing their morals on the internet is the opposite of good.


So why are the laws of our land completely dismissed? Is there no point in having lawmakers in NZ as they will just be ignored worldwide.
As there are two types of freedom of speech.
- Free speech which includes child abuse images, white supremacists and everything vile on the internet should be free.
- Freedom of speech where as a society accepts there are limits to what is acceptable.
Cloudflare are definitely on the free side and don't believe in freedom of speech.





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