What will happen to National now?

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#3093753 23-Jun-2023 07:42

Handle9:

Best you don't run for office then.

There are a number of reasons why I would never run for office. Where I grew up would be the least of anyone's problems.

BarTender

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#3093819 23-Jun-2023 09:29

GV27: The difficult stuff isn't getting done. Taxes through a lack of indexation are eating more and more people's real incomes, while basic state services like health and education walkback. Funny how there's plenty of money for huge centralisation exercises though.

It's very easy to point to what National want to do and say "but that won't work" when whether it works or not seems like a very secondary trifling issue as things stand. That it suddenly matters when National propose something different to the status quo should be seen as patch-protection and nothing less. If civil services being able to function properly actually mattered, we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

At this point the reality for many of us is not wanting to vote for a clown-show opposition with evangelicals at the helm who aren't capable of running their own ship, but who are also fed-up with being gaslighted by the current government, even over stuff they said they'd do but just lost interest in or don't want to talk about anymore.

Having worked with some government agencies overseas NZ by and large has quite a functional government agency across many of them. Sure there are inefficiencies no doubt, but those same inefficiencies exist in the private sector with useless or incompetent people promoted beyond their station. So to say the civil service isn't functional is disingenuous at best.

The hard stuff is exactly that, hard. It isn't sexy, or quickly done and always requires finessing and context which makes for a terrible sound bite.

GV27

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#3093880 23-Jun-2023 09:59

BarTender:

So to say the civil service isn't functional is disingenuous at best.

Or just an objective assessment based on my interaction and understanding of the state of front-line services, given the issues in the medical, educational and infrastructure track record of the current government.

Which we aren't meant to go into in detail in this thread, but I strenuously object to being called 'disingenuous' by simply expecting the state to function and deliver the healthcare, education and law and order functions it literally exists to provide, without severely inflaming a cost of living crisis.

If you aren't effected by that to some extent then you should consider yourself lucky. That does not mean these problems do not exist or do not affect others.

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#3093883 23-Jun-2023 10:05

given the issues in the medical, educational and infrastructure track record of all past governments. For decades

FTFY

GV27

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#3093885 23-Jun-2023 10:08

tdgeek:

given the issues in the medical, educational and infrastructure track record of all past governments. For decades

FTFY

You can't campaign on being a 'transformational' government and then get a free pass for things getting even worse.

That's all I want to say, lest this thread be yeeted (although maybe it is getting close to time for an all-purpose political arguments megathread given we are so close to the General Electric).

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#3093887 23-Jun-2023 10:10

Technofreak: I don't se how you came to the conclusion I was parroting any particular economic argument when what I said was it was better to provide equal opportunity for everyone up rather than drag people down to provide an equal outcome.

You seem to be conflating spending with outcomes. There is plenty of evidence to show that isn't the case. Our bureaucracy has grown significantly and we are not seeing any tangible benefits. No doubt more money could be spent in areas like health and education but it needs to be better targeted and not spent on administration as has happened in the past.

Just arbitrarily raising the minimum wage as you appear to be championing doesn't fix the underlying issue. We need better education outcomes than we've ben getting to raise the skills of our population. Just raising the minimum wage without increasing productivity is just chasing your tail. Costs go up, we all pay more for the same things, and we end up no better off.

I'm not sure I accept your point of view on charter schools, at least for the time being. I'm not saying I disagree but I think there been some vested interests who given the chance haven't allowed these schools a fair go to prove themselves either way. Like many political footballs there are pros and cons and I've heard strong arguments for both sides. For me the jury is still out.

I agree the less people in jail the better. The trouble is we have reduce our prison population but we've done nothing to fix the issues as to why these people went to jail to start with.

The mass transport can has been kicked down the road, in Auckland anyway, since the 1960's. To point the finger at the National party as it is now is just deflecting the discussion. We only have the critical mass for mass transport in about 4 centres.

Pretty well all those receiving superannuation have paid their taxes so they are entitled to vote like the rest of us. Using your logic someone on the dole shouldn't vote either.

Cutting taxes it always an election topic no matter the party in power/opposition, nothing new there. Whether they do it is another matter though our taxes need to be better spent.

I agree lifting wages is a very good idea, it just a matter of how you achieve that in a meaningful/practical/useful manner.

It's interesting you seemly talk in one way that the existing government is trying to drag everyone down vs lift the bottom up and then go on to disagree then agree with me lifting the minimum wage helps. Your argument seems very disjointed and backing the main policy argument of the National party which follows similar themes of other right wing parties that being born into poverty is your own fault and you need to "pull up your boot straps to get out of it".

To me it's a subtle but intentional way in which language is used by the National party. If the focus is on "We need to cut the welfare system so the dole bludgers don't sit on there" is hardly aspirational language about trying to lift the most vulnerable and least educated.

As the proverb goes "We Are Only As Fast As Our Slowest".

Also in regards to Charter Schools, I ideologically don't have a problem with them as long as the Government funding levels between them and state schools is equivalent. That however isn't the case where charter schools have received significant order of magnitude more government funding per student than state schools receive. "The school received $27,000 per student compared to $6,000 per student in a state school.". If that isn't a level playing field let alone worse attendance rates and educational outcomes then I don't know what is. Ask any state school principal and head teachers what they could achieve if they received $27k funding per student and their eyes would glaze over from the tears.

It all leads back to what sort of society we as folks who live in this great country want for the people who live here. Raising standards of living for everyone, and only keeping the worst of the worst in prison rather than spending 3-4 times more money keeping them behind bars gaining experience being a worse criminal over fixing the systemic problems that have lead those people to the place they are in.

I am completely comfortable with spending 1-2 times more on the poorest and most vulnerable to help lift them up as part of keeping a functional society rather than spending 3-4 times more holding them in prison. As to me that is a really good return on investment.

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#3093893 23-Jun-2023 10:31

GV27:

BarTender:

So to say the civil service isn't functional is disingenuous at best.

Or just an objective assessment based on my interaction and understanding of the state of front-line services, given the issues in the medical, educational and infrastructure track record of the current government.

Which we aren't meant to go into in detail in this thread, but I strenuously object to being called 'disingenuous' by simply expecting the state to function and deliver the healthcare, education and law and order functions it literally exists to provide, without severely inflaming a cost of living crisis.

If you aren't effected by that to some extent then you should consider yourself lucky. That does not mean these problems do not exist or do not affect others.

I know that the Government doesn't always provide the best service, long wait times when calling service desks and having a bad experience.

But I see exactly the same outcomes in private businesses on a daily basis here on Geekzone. As folks that work for those organisations be them private or government are still people be them sometimes good and sometimes not so good. To expect them to be magically better in Government is unrealistic.

Also typically folks who work in government are paid less than in private enterprise. So after experience as being a government worker in the early part of my career and then as a contractor I frequently see that the smart folks leave as they can get better money elsewhere and only the people who are dedicated to the agency or content with their role and not wanting to move are the ones who stay. It is the cold hard reality of how large organisations function. I'm not saying it is right, but it is what it is.

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#3093894 23-Jun-2023 10:31

GV27:

You can't campaign on being a 'transformational' government and then get a free pass for things getting even worse.

That's all I want to say, lest this thread be yeeted (although maybe it is getting close to time for an all-purpose political arguments megathread given we are so close to the General Electric).

Yes they tried and matters didn't work out as planned. Had another Govt been in place, nothing changes. The issues we have date back decades and there is little political will to address that, and if you had the will, its hard, and it would take time, assuming all future Govts kept at it, but they don't. Sad but true. Now if we discovered gold or diamonds, then yes a Lotto win means extra stuff can be paid for.

GV27

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#3093959 23-Jun-2023 11:29

BarTender:

But I see exactly the same outcomes in private businesses on a daily basis here on Geekzone. As folks that work for those organisations be them private or government are still people be them sometimes good and sometimes not so good. To expect them to be magically better in Government is unrealistic.

Private businesses do not have anywhere near the ability to influence the day-to-day lives of people like the state does, sometimes through the power of compulsion and threat of imprisonment. And even if it was a valid point, it didn't stop people promising heaven and earth on what you now want to contend were impossible time-frames in order to get themselves jobs around the table, did it?

To borrow your business argument, we do not tolerate bait-and-switch when it comes to consumer advertising, yet you are suggesting we should accept it from the people who have the power over almost the entire framework of our society. I refuse to accept that.

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#3094088 23-Jun-2023 13:24

@GV27:

You can't campaign on being a 'transformational' government and then get a free pass for things getting even worse.

That's all I want to say, lest this thread be yeeted (although maybe it is getting close to time for an all-purpose political arguments megathread given we are so close to the General Electric).

Get things right, please.

This thread is about "What will happen to National now?"

This thread is not about the current Labour government. If you want to discuss the current Labour government, you are welcome to create a new thread (there was one for "Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)" before, but there has been no replies since Feb 2023. Perhaps create one for "Our PM Chris Hipkins (and the government)" or "Our Labour Government 2023"?

JPNZ

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#3094091 23-Jun-2023 13:29

freitasm:

Get things right, please.

This thread is about "What will happen to National now?"

This thread is not about the current Labour government. If you want to discuss the current Labour government, you are welcome to create a new thread (there was one for "Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)" before, but there has been no replies since Feb 2023. Perhaps create one for "Our PM Chris Hipkins (and the government)" or "Our Labour Government 2023"?

Or the one thats already there??

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=303171

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#3094093 23-Jun-2023 13:32

Even better, thanks!

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#3094125 23-Jun-2023 15:25

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-optimistic-and-on-message

Chris Bishop quite optimistic about National's chances at the next election, based on how their campaign is going so far.

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#3094213 23-Jun-2023 18:52

GV27:
You can't campaign on being a 'transformational' government and then get a free pass for things getting even worse.

That's all I want to say, lest this thread be yeeted (although maybe it is getting close to time for an all-purpose political arguments megathread given we are so close to the General Electric).

I don’t think the current government has been particularly transformative. More slow and steady and don’t annoy the middle voters too much.

This is a thread about National and their plans if they get into government.with the tail very much being wagged by ACT. I don’t see any transformative policies coming out, only cutting taxes, more people in prison and brutally cutting the public service to the bone.

Technofreak

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#3094224 23-Jun-2023 19:36

BarTender:

Technofreak: I don't se how you came to the conclusion I was parroting any particular economic argument when what I said was it was better to provide equal opportunity for everyone up rather than drag people down to provide an equal outcome.

You seem to be conflating spending with outcomes. There is plenty of evidence to show that isn't the case. Our bureaucracy has grown significantly and we are not seeing any tangible benefits. No doubt more money could be spent in areas like health and education but it needs to be better targeted and not spent on administration as has happened in the past.

Just arbitrarily raising the minimum wage as you appear to be championing doesn't fix the underlying issue. We need better education outcomes than we've ben getting to raise the skills of our population. Just raising the minimum wage without increasing productivity is just chasing your tail. Costs go up, we all pay more for the same things, and we end up no better off.

I'm not sure I accept your point of view on charter schools, at least for the time being. I'm not saying I disagree but I think there been some vested interests who given the chance haven't allowed these schools a fair go to prove themselves either way. Like many political footballs there are pros and cons and I've heard strong arguments for both sides. For me the jury is still out.

I agree the less people in jail the better. The trouble is we have reduce our prison population but we've done nothing to fix the issues as to why these people went to jail to start with.

The mass transport can has been kicked down the road, in Auckland anyway, since the 1960's. To point the finger at the National party as it is now is just deflecting the discussion. We only have the critical mass for mass transport in about 4 centres.

Pretty well all those receiving superannuation have paid their taxes so they are entitled to vote like the rest of us. Using your logic someone on the dole shouldn't vote either.

Cutting taxes it always an election topic no matter the party in power/opposition, nothing new there. Whether they do it is another matter though our taxes need to be better spent.

I agree lifting wages is a very good idea, it just a matter of how you achieve that in a meaningful/practical/useful manner.

It's interesting you seemly talk in one way that the existing government is trying to drag everyone down vs lift the bottom up and then go on to disagree then agree with me lifting the minimum wage helps. Your argument seems very disjointed and backing the main policy argument of the National party which follows similar themes of other right wing parties that being born into poverty is your own fault and you need to "pull up your boot straps to get out of it".

To me it's a subtle but intentional way in which language is used by the National party. If the focus is on "We need to cut the welfare system so the dole bludgers don't sit on there" is hardly aspirational language about trying to lift the most vulnerable and least educated.

As the proverb goes "We Are Only As Fast As Our Slowest".

Also in regards to Charter Schools, I ideologically don't have a problem with them as long as the Government funding levels between them and state schools is equivalent. That however isn't the case where charter schools have received significant order of magnitude more government funding per student than state schools receive. "The school received $27,000 per student compared to $6,000 per student in a state school.". If that isn't a level playing field let alone worse attendance rates and educational outcomes then I don't know what is. Ask any state school principal and head teachers what they could achieve if they received $27k funding per student and their eyes would glaze over from the tears.

It all leads back to what sort of society we as folks who live in this great country want for the people who live here. Raising standards of living for everyone, and only keeping the worst of the worst in prison rather than spending 3-4 times more money keeping them behind bars gaining experience being a worse criminal over fixing the systemic problems that have lead those people to the place they are in.

I am completely comfortable with spending 1-2 times more on the poorest and most vulnerable to help lift them up as part of keeping a functional society rather than spending 3-4 times more holding them in prison. As to me that is a really good return on investment.

I didn't agree with arbitrarily raising wages as has happened, perhaps I didn't make my self clear. That's just a merry-go-round where the only winner is the government who gets an increased tax take.

The person who it's intended to benefit sure doesn't end up better off in the long run. Just raising wages on their own is a futile exercise. That's why I added the caveat "it is just a matter of how you achieve that in a meaningful/practical/useful manner" which you chose not to highlight.

We have to find a way to make the pie bigger by increasing productivity at the same time. In my opinion that's partly achieved by increasing the skills of workers - better education etc.

Thanks for the info on charter schools I wasn't aware of that. I've seen similar situations in other industries where government money has been "thrown" at new comers where that money would have achieved much better results if it were given to already established players. It's a shame this sort of thing happens.

In my opinion you incorrectly stereotype all people in right wing parties. Here's one article that shows your generalisation isn't correct. Jarrod Gilbert doesn't think so either. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bill-english-i-specialise-in-being-boring/JMI2NISFP7JAZQB7SCDJWE2XHU/

Here's another one from October last year. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jarrod-gilbert-why-id-happily-shout-bill-english-a-beer/G5MCRBU4DJG43NH6K4CSWADR7E/

Unfortunately it's paywalled. It talks about National's social investment model from 2015, it references the other article I have linked and talks about how the National party was trying to breathe life back into this model again last year.

From what I have seen/heard Nationals approach is teach a man to fish and feed him for life, rather than give him a fish and feed him for the day. I know which approach I prefer.

Everyone deserves an equal opportunity, I'm not aware of National espousing otherwise in fact I've heard Christopher Luxon say National believes in equal opportunity. They don't espouse an equal outcome which is what some people seem to think should happen.

I have no problem spend in 1 or 2 times to stop some one going to prison rather than spending 3 or 4 times to keep them in prison. This was exactly what Bill English was driving at. Who'd have thought it, a National politician talking the talk you'd have traditionally expected from a Labour politician.

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