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BarTender
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  #3094295 24-Jun-2023 10:13
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Technofreak: I didn't agree with arbitrarily raising wages as has happened, perhaps I didn't make my self clear. That's just a merry-go-round where the only winner is the government who gets an increased tax take.

 

The person who it's intended to benefit sure doesn't end up better off in the long run. Just raising wages on their own is a futile exercise. That's why I added the caveat "it is just a matter of how you achieve that in a meaningful/practical/useful manner" which you chose not to highlight.

 

We have to find a way to make the pie bigger by increasing productivity at the same time. In my opinion that's partly achieved by increasing the skills of workers - better education etc.

 

Thanks for the info on charter schools I wasn't aware of that. I've seen similar situations in other industries where government money has been "thrown" at new comers where that money would have achieved much better results if it were given to already established players. It's a shame this sort of thing happens.

 

In my opinion you incorrectly stereotype all people in right wing parties. Here's one article that shows your generalisation isn't correct. Jarrod Gilbert doesn't think so either. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bill-english-i-specialise-in-being-boring/JMI2NISFP7JAZQB7SCDJWE2XHU/

 

Here's another one from October last year. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jarrod-gilbert-why-id-happily-shout-bill-english-a-beer/G5MCRBU4DJG43NH6K4CSWADR7E/

 

Unfortunately it's paywalled. It talks about National's social investment model from 2015, it references the other article I have linked and talks about how the National party was trying to breathe life back into this model again last year.

 

From what I have seen/heard Nationals approach is teach a man to fish and feed him for life, rather than give him a fish and feed him for the day. I know which approach I prefer.

 

Everyone deserves an equal opportunity, I'm not aware of National espousing otherwise in fact I've heard Christopher Luxon say National believes in equal opportunity. They don't espouse an equal outcome which is what some people seem to think should happen.

 

I have no problem spend in 1 or 2 times to stop some one going to prison rather than spending 3 or 4 times to keep them in prison. This was exactly what Bill English was driving at. Who'd have thought it, a National politician talking the talk you'd have traditionally expected from a Labour politician. 

 

Reading your respond this morning and I honestly laughed out loud at the line:

 

We have to find a way to make the pie bigger by increasing productivity at the same time

 

Have you not seen the productivity gains NZ society has made since the 1980 and continues to do so today and offset against wages? Productivity has consistently grown year on year for decades and yet wages have never kept pace with that productivity.

 

https://www.acuitymag.com/opinion/productivity-is-up-why-not-wages

 

https://ojs.victoria.ac.nz/LEW/article/download/1714/1557/2184

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300339951/higher-productivity-doesnt-necessarily-mean-higher-wages

 

It's the most laughable BS argument any neoliberal uses that "we need to increase productivity", when productivity IS increasing as Luxon goes on and on about productivity time and time again

 

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/15/tax-reform-productivity-key-to-curbing-cost-of-living-luxon/

 

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/04/luxon-big-fan-of-raising-minimum-wage-if-economy-growing/

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/christopher-luxon-says-five-point-inflation-fighting-plan-will-put-more-money-in-pockets/EGTEX6BOOBFGHFO6BWQHKSJS6I/

 

It's almost as laughable as the "Gen Z need to stop buying iPhones and eating avocado on toast so they can buy a house" give me a break.

 

 

 

If wages had kept pace with productivity and average house prices to average wage gap had not skyrocketed over the last 20 years from a 4 times your wage to 11 times the wage that is simply not sustainable and will continue to increase the inequality gap and will mean that NZ becomes a landed gentry which is terrible for our overall society.

 

https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/06-07-2021/from-1992-to-2021-heres-how-much-you-needed-to-earn-to-afford-a-nz-house

 

And National with the help of ACT want to make it even worse with their policies.

 

https://www.national.org.nz/nationals_going_for_housing_growth_plan

 

https://www.act.org.nz/housing

 

Building more houses at the city fringe, while being against rapid public transport and supporting businesses who encourage workers back into the CBD is the trifecta of utter nonsense.

 

 

 

Families being able to live in houses they can afford, not having to commute for two hours a day and having one partner able to work at home bringing up their kids for the first 3-4 years of the childs life is what will build a sustainable and cohesive society. Renters in tenuous unhealthy rentals, living hours away from their job and the whole family needing to work from when the child is born is the society that we live in now.

 

The following policies would make a massive difference for NZ society, but the "mum and dad landlords" as the excuse but the reality of the landlord mega owners would have to provide affordable livable housing and there needs to be a pathway to home ownership as that helps to achieve far better societal outcomes for everyone.

 

But National and ACT want to take us in the opposite direction.

 

There is nothing in any of Nationals manifesto that is inspirational to help lift all society to achieve a better outcome for everyone. Absolutely nothing.




freitasm
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  #3094333 24-Jun-2023 11:54
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The whole "lifting productivity will help increase wages" spiel, when in fact productivity is going up for years, is the same thing as saying trickle-down works: give more money to the rich that eventually will come to the poorer layers.

 

It is not the case.





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BarTender
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  #3094499 24-Jun-2023 17:18
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I think both @Technofreak and @GV27 should listen to this very interesting interview on Radio NZ - Naomi Oreskes: how Big Business made us love the free market

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018895732/naomi-oreskes-how-big-business-made-us-love-the-free-market

 

You might learn something about where the neoliberal ideology that you both subscribe to all came from.


tdgeek
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  #3094500 24-Jun-2023 17:31
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quickymart:

 

Thus begins day 1 of the National Party conference: 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-party-conference-deputy-leader-nicola-willis-warns-of-mortgage-bomb-after-fast-rising-interest-rates/WJL55BGIPVHZ7OIN5RTK4E37CM/

 

 

 

 

Thats a worry, I will probably emmigrate!. I checked Nicola's quals, yeah, nah.

 

Reality is you can trust G Robertson for financial nous, or you can trust Bill English, but you cannot trust N.Willis. Irregardless of this threads "fans" this is not an Apple vs Android, or Ford vs Holden issue. All TWO of them have cred. Nic and Chris dont.

 

Enlighten me as Ive been out and about today, but what I am seeing from the National unofficial campaign, is that to push NZ forward, we bag Labour. Fully ok to bag Labour, but IMO that's avoiding ownership. Why not put "these" real points forward? 

 

Analogy. Roger Federer is great. Did he beat Novac as he bagged Novac, or he just played better???????


tdgeek
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  #3094501 24-Jun-2023 17:32
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freitasm:

 

The whole "lifting productivity will help increase wages" spiel, when in fact productivity is going up for years, is the same thing as saying trickle-down works: give more money to the rich that eventually will come to the poorer layers.

 

It is not the case.

 

 

I guess its fake news, get the headlines, masses will suck it up. 


tdgeek
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  #3094506 24-Jun-2023 17:57
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132410875/christopher-luxon-tells-party-strong-national-government-needed-for-nzs-mojo

 

Good, we are a democracy Tell me what you will do

 

Nothing but ideology. Policies? No. Add this add that cut this or cut that, thats what we want to know. But no. Maybe this wont be an election of what we will do but bag the other, thats enough?

 

Has to make you wonder if democracy works. Well, yes it does work, pity its based on frantic marketing only...


 
 
 
 

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Handle9

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  #3094585 25-Jun-2023 05:01
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Handle9:
sen8or:

 

The face of the current Govt already kicked herself out and many NZers seem to think that all the Govt poor decisions went with her. I don't think that will help compare Nationals chances vs Labour when looking at the rest of the world.

 

 

 

National may have made a mistake, trying to install John Key V2.0 as a leader, Luxon just doesn't have the same charisma, confidence or credibility as JK and his naivety shows up too frequently. I have no desire to see Labour win a 3rd term, but I have a strong suspicion that is what we will get until National can present a viable alternative as party leader. 

 



Luxon was never Key 2.0. Key was a kid from a statehouse who made good. He as relatable in a way that Luxon isn’t.

Luxon was the son of a corporate type went to St Kent’s and Christchurch Boys. He’s spent his whole life around privilege and it shows.

 

So Luxon is claiming to have been a crusaders supporter since he was a little boy. Do you think the same consultants that told him if he supported sports ball it would be good might have also told him he was 26 when the crusaders were formed?

 


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  #3094679 25-Jun-2023 12:48
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quickymart:

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/06/election-2023-national-wants-limits-on-judges-discretion-during-sentencing.html

 

Day 2 of the conference, today covering law and order.

 

 

Some sound ideas there. 


GV27
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  #3094699 25-Jun-2023 13:44
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Handle9:

 

So Luxon is claiming to have been a crusaders supporter since he was a little boy. Do you think the same consultants that told him if he supported sports ball it would be good might have also told him he was 26 when the crusaders were formed?

 

 

Wouldn't be the first person to fail to separate the NPC team from the Super Rugby franchise, won't be the last. To many, Canterbury is Canterbury. The zoning of the SI teams hasn't changed much since inception, as opposed to say, Auckland, which sometimes likes to pretend the North Shore isn't there. 

 

But sure, it's definitely a huge red flag when it comes to political fitness for office that we should definitely analyse into the ground. Huge bearing on his ability to get people out of emergency accomdation and waiting rooms at hopsitals. Definitely absolutely the hot button issue of this election, for sure.


Technofreak
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  #3094746 25-Jun-2023 16:02
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BarTender:

 

Reading your respond this morning and I honestly laughed out loud at the line:

 

We have to find a way to make the pie bigger by increasing productivity at the same time

 

Have you not seen the productivity gains NZ society has made since the 1980 and continues to do so today and offset against wages? Productivity has consistently grown year on year for decades and yet wages have never kept pace with that productivity.

 

https://www.acuitymag.com/opinion/productivity-is-up-why-not-wages

 

https://ojs.victoria.ac.nz/LEW/article/download/1714/1557/2184

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300339951/higher-productivity-doesnt-necessarily-mean-higher-wages

 

It's the most laughable BS argument any neoliberal uses that "we need to increase productivity", when productivity IS increasing as Luxon goes on and on about productivity time and time again

 

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/15/tax-reform-productivity-key-to-curbing-cost-of-living-luxon/

 

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/04/luxon-big-fan-of-raising-minimum-wage-if-economy-growing/

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/christopher-luxon-says-five-point-inflation-fighting-plan-will-put-more-money-in-pockets/EGTEX6BOOBFGHFO6BWQHKSJS6I/

 

It's almost as laughable as the "Gen Z need to stop buying iPhones and eating avocado on toast so they can buy a house" give me a break.

 

 

 

If wages had kept pace with productivity and average house prices to average wage gap had not skyrocketed over the last 20 years from a 4 times your wage to 11 times the wage that is simply not sustainable and will continue to increase the inequality gap and will mean that NZ becomes a landed gentry which is terrible for our overall society.

 

https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/06-07-2021/from-1992-to-2021-heres-how-much-you-needed-to-earn-to-afford-a-nz-house

 

And National with the help of ACT want to make it even worse with their policies.

 

https://www.national.org.nz/nationals_going_for_housing_growth_plan

 

https://www.act.org.nz/housing

 

Building more houses at the city fringe, while being against rapid public transport and supporting businesses who encourage workers back into the CBD is the trifecta of utter nonsense.

 

 

 

Families being able to live in houses they can afford, not having to commute for two hours a day and having one partner able to work at home bringing up their kids for the first 3-4 years of the childs life is what will build a sustainable and cohesive society. Renters in tenuous unhealthy rentals, living hours away from their job and the whole family needing to work from when the child is born is the society that we live in now.

 

The following policies would make a massive difference for NZ society, but the "mum and dad landlords" as the excuse but the reality of the landlord mega owners would have to provide affordable livable housing and there needs to be a pathway to home ownership as that helps to achieve far better societal outcomes for everyone.

 

But National and ACT want to take us in the opposite direction.

 

There is nothing in any of Nationals manifesto that is inspirational to help lift all society to achieve a better outcome for everyone. Absolutely nothing.

 

 

You seem pretty triggered about National. Everything in life is a compromise. I don’t see them as the ideal government, nor the solution to all of our problems.

 

The way I see it, it’s a matter of choosing the least worst option. I’m not a big fan of Christopher Luxon. I’m not impressed with some of Nationals past “achievements” either but right now they offer the least worst option.

 


You seem to have missed or ignored my point about arbitrarily raising wages. I’m not discussing what has happened historically with respect to productivity and wages. There is no denying one hasn’t necessarily lead to the other.

 


I haven’t had time yet to read the articles you have linked. I will say one thing, I expect I could find counter view points to those articles. We could go back and forth ad infinitum. In realty the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 


My point was a wage increase without being coupled to some form of productivity improvement is just a futile merry-go-round. It just adds to inflation which doesn’t benefit those people the increase is supposed to benefit but the government gets a bigger tax take. 

 


The only other people that benefit over time are those who own a house and have a mortgage, their mortgage now takes up a smaller percentage of their income. The people without a house miss out.

 


If you have proof that an arbitrary wage increase, that you seem to be a fan of, doesn’t increase inflation thus eroding any benefits I’d be interested to see it. 

 


Wages have gone backwards with respect to the necessities of life no matter which team, Red or Blue is in charge. To just pick on National is being rather selective IMO.

 


Also don’t get me started on some of the inequities we have today. How a CEO (business or government) is worth several multiples of the rank and file workers beats me. This has been happening since the 1980’s with governments of both hues.

 


You complain that houses are getting unaffordable. The biggest increase in house prices over the last 30 years has occurred over the past 6 years and before that the biggest increase was during the early to mid 2000’s. Both periods when National wasn’t in power. You complain about Nationals policies but fail to acknowledge a significant contribution to the issue you complain about was the result of actions of the Red team. 





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Technofreak
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  #3094750 25-Jun-2023 16:19
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BarTender:

 

I think both @Technofreak and @GV27 should listen to this very interesting interview on Radio NZ - Naomi Oreskes: how Big Business made us love the free market

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018895732/naomi-oreskes-how-big-business-made-us-love-the-free-market

 

You might learn something about where the neoliberal ideology that you both subscribe to all came from.

 

 

You need to stop making rash assumptions about what ideology I might subscribe to. My interpretation of the free market might be different from yours but I very much doubt my thoughts on the free marker align with what is being talked about in that item.

 

Governments need to make the rules to ensure there is is an environment that allows human enterprise to flourish for the benefit of everyone. While that should mean the minimum of government interference in business activies it doesn't mean free range for business to operate as they wish to the detriment of others.





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tdgeek
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  #3094783 25-Jun-2023 17:44
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Technofreak:

 

 

 

You seem pretty triggered about National. Everything in life is a compromise. I don’t see them as the ideal government, nor the solution to all of our problems.

 

 

 

 

Disclosure: I haven't read past what I quoted.

 

The same applies to the National fan people, and up till 2017 my vote was equal for Blue and Red. Also the odd Green or no one

 

True, National, Labour are not nor the solution to all of our problems. 

 

Because politics here is a slow burn. Words to make NZ Great Again. Or actual policies. Or NO policies, which is ideology. The end game is its about Marketing and Psychology. National has a history of low or no policies, just ideology. Labour has a history of stuff businesses its about the workers. Both fail.

 

I wont go back again to my analogy of a low income home owning family...but NZ has very very little legroom. 


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