What will happen to National now?

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#2771245 3-Sep-2021 12:57

Rikkitic:

You folks who are so determined not to give her any credit for anything have a real blind spot here. Jacinda Ardern is a transformational character. She led Labour to the first ever complete majority under MMP. I am not arguing that her policies are correct, or even honest, just that she in herself is a history-changing individual, whether certain people like that or not.

That very statement represents everything wrong about how and why Labour got voted in. It had nothing at all to do with their ability to be transformational, it was all about their ability to sell the dream that they were. They had a charismatic leader who had doe eyed followers regurgitating their propaganda without questioning it. Back in the late 1930s, there was another charismatic leader who had his doe eyed followers regurgitating his party's propaganda without question, that didn't end well.

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#2771351 3-Sep-2021 14:16

Rikkitic:

GV27:

...After three nation-changing crises. Even up until Covid, it was clear she was going to have a hard time defending their track record of almost total inaction over the previous term come the election. She was leading a third-term government that was getting by on announcements about announcements and tired inaction on any meaningful policy front before the end of the first term.

And realistically, beating the current National Party with an absolute majority is hardly the electoral king-hit many people want it to be.

Who do you think has guided the nation through those crises, and done it rather well? I think she has been a bit busy lately and the first term doesn't count with Winston Peters tripping her up at every opportunity. And if she did so badly then, why did the country give her an overwhelming mandate?

Realistically, the fact that National has self-destructed takes nothing away from her achievement. She beat them fair and square.

So blaming Winston who she voluntarily went into coalition with?

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#2771357 3-Sep-2021 14:19

freitasm:

Just the fact she's not going around with a grumpy face and blaming everyone else is a change, isn't it?

Yeah, being the leader of the opposition is a pretty tough gig. Weren't too many smiles from Labour leaders in 9 years prior to the 2017 election either.

Blaming other people isn't just an Opposition problem, Labour have been doing an excellent job of it whilst in power too.

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#2771486 3-Sep-2021 15:24

Rikkitic:

She led Labour to the first ever complete majority under MMP. I am not arguing that her policies are correct, or even honest, just that she in herself is a history-changing individual, whether certain people like that or not.

I think most of that can be credited to Collins being unpalatable to most voters and National completely imploding. There was a lot of previous National voters voted Labour to ensure they wouldn't be needing the Green Party to govern.

But yes Ardern has been a very effective leader in responding to numerous crises. Showing empathy and taking action as needed. It is the response to longer term structural issues that many are disappointed with. But National aren't exactly showing they have any options for addressing those.

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#2771487 3-Sep-2021 15:24

networkn:

Yeah, being the leader of the opposition is a pretty tough gig. Weren't too many smiles from Labour leaders in 9 years prior to the 2017 election either.

Blaming other people isn't just an Opposition problem, Labour have been doing an excellent job of it whilst in power too.

I put "leaders" with grumpy faces in the same bags as others that do the same "tough face" posture: Trump, Bolsonaro.

People don't have to show "tough gace" to be a strong leader.

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#2771492 3-Sep-2021 15:29

Varkk:

It is the response to longer term structural issues that many are disappointed with. But National aren't exactly showing they have any options for addressing those.

The financial impact of C19 and the related things like massive inflation are likely to put paid to pretty much anything except austerity in the coming few years.

Some people were critical of Nationals focus on returning to surplus, even if it meant some things weren't maintained to levels (and there is plenty of debate around if that is true or not and to what degree).

However, those decisions were a factor in our current ability to handle the financial impacts of C19.

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#2771496 3-Sep-2021 15:33

freitasm:

I put "leaders" with grumpy faces in the same bags as others that do the same "tough face" posture: Trump, Bolsonaro.

Each to their own I guess. I don't care about what face someone puts on or otherwise. Plenty of politicians are dour or sour-looking.

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#2771498 3-Sep-2021 15:35

Rikkitic:

I think she has been a bit busy lately and the first term doesn't count with Winston Peters tripping her up at every opportunity.

Completely failed to discipline her own, non-performing cabinet ministers, even promoted Phil Twyford after Kiwibuild and Light Rail fiascos - the light rail bit for which Winston became a scapegoat, because it was already a total mess by the time it got to cabinet and NZ First got anywhere near it.

Sorry, but this is reaching. You don't get to spend years complaining about National being a do-nothing government then just be rudderless every day there isn't a national disaster - and I remain unconvinced that Bill English would have done any worse than Ardern has on those days either.

The fact that National have failed to land a hit on this Labour government in a coherent way says far more about them than it does about any achievements of the first term of the Ardern Government.

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#2771502 3-Sep-2021 15:37

Rikkitic:

I thought that would get a rise out of you. But no, I am not kididng.

Then you and I have a very different definition of transformational.

Whilst you are busy patting her on the back, you might consider the majority win you seem so proud of, was likely as much a result of people voting Labour instead of National so they could keep the Greens out of the picture. I know this was the position of many farmers.

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#2771506 3-Sep-2021 15:40

networkn:

freitasm:

I put "leaders" with grumpy faces in the same bags as others that do the same "tough face" posture: Trump, Bolsonaro.

Each to their own I guess. I don't care about what face someone puts on or otherwise. Plenty of politicians are dour or sour-looking.

Being dour or sour-looking while being ineffective is pretty damning.

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#2771510 3-Sep-2021 15:48

sen8or: Back in the late 1930s, there was another charismatic leader who had his doe eyed followers regurgitating his party's propaganda without question, that didn't end well.

Not entirely sure who you are referencing here, but if it is a certain German leader you are way out of line to even obliquely suggest such an equivalence. I really hope you are thinking of someone else.

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#2771511 3-Sep-2021 15:48

networkn:

Whilst you are busy patting her on the back, you might consider the majority win you seem so proud of, was likely as much a result of people voting Labour instead of National so they could keep the Greens out of the picture. I know this was the position of many farmers.

That trope keeps being pulled out by those who want to deny any credit to the government. It's farcical.

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#2771512 3-Sep-2021 15:50

freitasm:

Being dour or sour-looking while being ineffective is pretty damning.

What would you have them do exactly? The Labour party has a majority position and can do whatever they want, all but ignoring any other party or their criticism. National has raised many valid points in opposition, there isn't exactly a shortlist of Labour policy failure, nor clueless minister behaviour but until the *voters* care enough, nothing will happen. People don't like Judith Collins, so pretty much regardless of what she says, people discount it.

When Labour was in opposition, it was the same, even when they had reasonable issues to raise, they were discounted as "barking at passing cars", or "opposing for the sake of it".

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#2771538 3-Sep-2021 16:11

networkn:

What would you have them do exactly? The Labour party has a majority position and can do whatever they want, all but ignoring any other party or their criticism. National has raised many valid points in opposition, there isn't exactly a shortlist of Labour policy failure, nor clueless minister behaviour but until the *voters* care enough, nothing will happen. People don't like Judith Collins, so pretty much regardless of what she says, people discount it.

When Labour was in opposition, it was the same, even when they had reasonable issues to raise, they were discounted as "barking at passing cars", or "opposing for the sake of it".

What you are saying is that our system of democracy doesn't work very well. I hope that isn't true because I like it here.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2771546 3-Sep-2021 16:23

Rikkitic:

networkn:

What would you have them do exactly? The Labour party has a majority position and can do whatever they want, all but ignoring any other party or their criticism. National has raised many valid points in opposition, there isn't exactly a shortlist of Labour policy failure, nor clueless minister behaviour but until the *voters* care enough, nothing will happen. People don't like Judith Collins, so pretty much regardless of what she says, people discount it.

When Labour was in opposition, it was the same, even when they had reasonable issues to raise, they were discounted as "barking at passing cars", or "opposing for the sake of it".

What you are saying is that our system of democracy doesn't work very well. I hope that isn't true because I like it here.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. It is what it is.

Anyways, this is the National bashing thread, and we are off-topic :)

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