What will happen to National now?

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Forums › Politics › What will happen to National now?

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#2777941 14-Sep-2021 07:27

Noig:

Judith Collins "Trumpian" behaviour towards Dr Siouxsie Wiles is the latest try to improve her profile . Unfortunately she hasn't much more to offer at a time the Govt is stuck in a rut.

She's just trying what Winston got away with for years as part of the previous government, but she can't pull it off.

Fred99

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#2777982 14-Sep-2021 08:24

Handle9:
GV27:

Yea. My jaw just kept dropping as I read more and more of her comments. The clincher was "and I doubt it".

Could have just been a wry 'rules for thee but not for me' or similar, but no, we got..... this.

The crazy part of this is that there is a case to position Wiles as a partisan actor. She was quite open about her politics during the election campaign. .

There is no "case" for a derp like Collins to position her as a "partisan actor". She's an academic at a university - not a policy maker in some government agency. There's no expectation or requirement to be "neutral" or for her to keep her political opinions private. Unless there are exceptional circumstances (academics promoting violence for example - and that not being addressed by Uni councils through their internal procedures) - then politicians should keep their dirty hands off - not "position them" as enemies.

It's often said that facts have a "left wing bias". That becomes obvious when scientific consensus doesn't fit with conservative social and economic policies. Leaded petrol, tobacco, asbestos, covid, whatever. Scientists blowing the whistle get accused of being "partisan actors" and a threat to "our way of life".

GV27

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#2778105 14-Sep-2021 09:55

Fred99:

It's often said that facts have a "left wing bias".

I have literally never heard this 'often said' phrase.

Rikkitic

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#2778117 14-Sep-2021 10:16

GV27:

I have literally never heard this 'often said' phrase.

I haven't either, but it has the ring of truth. Generally speaking (with gross oversimplification), the left is about change, the right about stasis. Conservatives want things to stay the same, which is what the word means. The problem is they don't and can't, which leads to conflict.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

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#2778122 14-Sep-2021 10:25

Rikkitic:

GV27:

I have literally never heard this 'often said' phrase.

I haven't either, but it has the ring of truth. Generally speaking (with gross oversimplification), the left is about change, the right about stasis. Conservatives want things to stay the same, which is what the word means. The problem is they don't and can't, which leads to conflict.

I agree there is probably some element to it, but I disagree with your characterisation of the right. Generally, I'd say they are more cautious about change and want it to happen more gradually. You'll find extremes on both sides. Change for the sake of it isn't usually worthwhile, and not all change is good.

Handle9

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#2778322 14-Sep-2021 16:28

Fred99:

Handle9:

The crazy part of this is that there is a case to position Wiles as a partisan actor. She was quite open about her politics during the election campaign. .

There is no "case" for a derp like Collins to position her as a "partisan actor". She's an academic at a university - not a policy maker in some government agency. There's no expectation or requirement to be "neutral" or for her to keep her political opinions private. Unless there are exceptional circumstances (academics promoting violence for example - and that not being addressed by Uni councils through their internal procedures) - then politicians should keep their dirty hands off - not "position them" as enemies.

It's often said that facts have a "left wing bias". That becomes obvious when scientific consensus doesn't fit with conservative social and economic policies. Leaded petrol, tobacco, asbestos, covid, whatever. Scientists blowing the whistle get accused of being "partisan actors" and a threat to "our way of life".

When she strays into politically based opinion then she increasingly becomes a political actor and subject to political scrutiny. Play silly games, win silly prizes.

quickymart

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#2778325 14-Sep-2021 16:33

I wonder what all this carryon is doing for her polling with National voters? Do they love this sort of Trump-ish bullying crap, or does it turn them off?

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quickymart

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#2778638 15-Sep-2021 10:22

Her former press secretary talks to The Spinoff:

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/15-09-2021/paranoid-storms-judith-collins-former-press-secretary-on-national-leadership-and-oblivion/

SJB

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#2778673 15-Sep-2021 11:14

This is not good. We need an effective opposition to hold the government to account.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#2778679 15-Sep-2021 11:26

Handle9:

When she strays into politically based opinion then she increasingly becomes a political actor and subject to political scrutiny. Play silly games, win silly prizes.

This isn't America. Public servants are free to express their political opinions - without fear of retribution. Political scrutiny? Get real - Collins attempted character assassination.

Rikkitic

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#2778680 15-Sep-2021 11:28

SJB:

This is not good. We need an effective opposition to hold the government to account.

I am very much in the progressive/left camp but I fully agree. We do need an effective (and hopefully intelligent ) opposition. Unfortunately, that is likely to be ACT unless a meaningful conservative movement rises from National's ashes.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

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#2778709 15-Sep-2021 11:53

Rikkitic:

Unfortunately, that is likely to be ACT unless a meaningful conservative movement rises from National's ashes.

The Conservative bit is the problem with National. They have too many Muldoonists who buy into the strongman approach (Collins, Mitchell) and then a separate wing who are big on the evangelism and a lot of the imported conservative crap that comes with it. Unfortunately this includes some very effective and high profile people like Bridges, and some highly respected local MPs like O'Connor.

While these two are duking it out, the urban liberals (i.e. the ones most in touch with the Young Nats bulge from the Key era, who are now facing high house prices, low wages and increasingly uncompetitive living standards in NZ) are now finding the party has nothing to offer them. I would include myself in that but I was never a Young Nat - although a lot of my close friends are. Almost none of them would consider voting for this incarnation of the National Party, and depressingly, probably not the next one either.

Those urban, educated and progressive votes aren't going to ACT either, they're going to Labour in huge numbers. And while ACT might be picking up some support, a lot of it is coming from people who would probably be happy to vote National no matter who was in charge, provided they could actually present as a functional party.

SJB

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#2778749 15-Sep-2021 13:12

Rikkitic:

SJB:

This is not good. We need an effective opposition to hold the government to account.

I am very much in the progressive/left camp but I fully agree. We do need an effective (and hopefully intelligent ) opposition. Unfortunately, that is likely to be ACT unless a meaningful conservative movement rises from National's ashes.

I should have said 'democracy needs' rather than 'we need' as I was thinking of any government rather than just the incumbents.

Can't see ACT doing anything. They are a one man band.

quickymart

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#2778808 15-Sep-2021 15:22

Unsurprisingly, Judith is not impressed.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/judith-collins-denies-paranoia-claims-and-hits-back-at-former-staffer-janet-wilson/2JAMEX76ZSFLON7OYNYVMJ6HTE/

Collins also dismissed the idea she was getting political advice from right-leaning blogger Cameron Slater who said he was still in regular contact with the National leader.

LOL, yeah, righto, like he's a really stable (and helpful) influence?

Jas777

838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2778819 15-Sep-2021 15:38

Rikkitic:

I am very much in the progressive/left camp but I fully agree. We do need an effective (and hopefully intelligent ) opposition. Unfortunately, that is likely to be ACT unless a meaningful conservative movement rises from National's ashes.

There are just as many if not more conservative people in the left camp as there are in ACT. A lot of the religious / working class left are more conservative. The progressive v left camp hasn't happened here yet but it will eventually. Once the progressive inner city people ride rough shot over the outer suburb working class.

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