What will happen to National now?

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Forums › Politics › What will happen to National now?

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838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2887546 17-Mar-2022 11:30

OldGeek:

quickymart:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nationals-proposed-tax-changes-suggest-theyre-out-of-ideas-shane-te-pou/YLIB2DHZGADNZ4QA33DR2POOOE/ (paywalled)
Talks about Luxon's tax cuts plans and how it wouldn't really help those at the bottom of the ladder, ie, the ones that need it the most - but would help him greatly.

I think that talk about tax cuts is tone-deaf in todays world. We have grown accustomed to the idea that the pandemic has necessitated unprecedented levels of Government borrowing to cushion the financial impact of the pandemic with subsidies to business to keep their employees on the payroll. National should instead be focussing on returning Government spending to pre-pandemic levels except for Health, addressing the shortcomings of our Health facilities that the pandemic has exposed, and a plan to get Government debt back to pre-pandemic levels.

Health facilities or the fact that NZers have not looked after their own health?

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2887549 17-Mar-2022 11:47

elpenguino:

You sound frustrated and ready for 'I want some tracks going somewhere, anywhere'.

You sound unwilling to accept there may have been any issues with the Light Rail project at all, which is absurd.

I want what was actually campaigned on, on the time frame that was campaigned on. It was good enough to use as bait when it came to the election. If that isn't realistic, then I'm not the person you need to ask about that. Maybe start with the people who promised it in the first place.

There have been numerous issues with the process, as pointed out by groups like Greater Auckland, and it's holding up the rollout of rapid transit across the entire region. The whole thing is a mess and is now a huge white elephant in the making. With any luck it will get nixed and then we can go back to the street level proposal for the CC2M route and use the money saved to build the NW line in a much quicker timeframe.

gzt

16997 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2887568 17-Mar-2022 12:51

networkn:
quickymart:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nationals-proposed-tax-changes-suggest-theyre-out-of-ideas-shane-te-pou/YLIB2DHZGADNZ4QA33DR2POOOE/ (paywalled)
Talks about Luxon's tax cuts plans and how it wouldn't really help those at the bottom of the ladder, ie, the ones that need it the most - but would help him greatly.
In the past few years, plenty has been done to help the lower socio-economic groups in this country. Surely it's ok if it's balanced out by also providing some in other areas?
It doesn't preclude there being other measures to also be taken.

Housing insecurity and cost remains a problem at the root of many related problems. If and as covid continues to reduce and international links resume this issue will only increase if not with a vengeance.

Jas777

838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2887573 17-Mar-2022 13:18

gzt:
Housing insecurity and cost remains a problem at the root of many related problems. If and as covid continues to reduce and international links resume this issue will only increase if not with a vengeance.

Going to be just as many leaving to either return to their old life overseas instead of hiding in NZ and others finally getting to go overseas.

antonknee

1133 posts

Uber Geek

#2887594 17-Mar-2022 14:27

Jas777:

Rail to the airport is a gimmick, they will find that hardly anyone uses to and from the airport and that 90% of passengers will just be every day Aucklanders using other parts of the route. If going to build rail then build it to places Aucklanders need for normal life.

Which is incidentally almost the entire reason the light rail project started and went the way it did while it was under AT's control. Real shame about the last 7 years.

Also I laugh at the way everyone gets upset about government debt in the politics thread and get excited about the perceived need to pay it down urgently. Do people realise that governments and countries have almost zero in common with your personal finances? Do people realise NZ's public debt levels are comparatively very low? Paying off debt with cash money in an inflationary environment is stupid anyway, let inflation pay it off for you...😉

Tax cuts, paying debt, and cutting spending is probably about the last thing we actually need, particularly if one decides to look more than about 5 minutes into the future (but the party currently spruiking tax cuts is historically not good at this).

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2887610 17-Mar-2022 15:22

antonknee:

Tax cuts, paying debt, and cutting spending is probably about the last thing we actually need, particularly if one decides to look more than about 5 minutes into the future (but the party currently spruiking tax cuts is historically not good at this).

I don't have a problem with not giving tax cuts but not all spending is good spending and we seem to take forever to build anything in this country. If we are going to spend up large then I'd prefer it to be on infrastructure, not paying for power bills for well-off superannuitants without means-testing it to find out who actually needs it.

The problem with relying on inflation-driven wage increases to help people pay down the massive mortgages that have exploded under your watch is it won't work if you keep sneaking bits of it in the form of increased taxes, to the point where people are still going backwards in real terms.

antonknee

1133 posts

Uber Geek

#2887629 17-Mar-2022 16:05

GV27:

...Not all spending is good spending... not paying for power bills for well-off superannuitants without means-testing it to find out who actually needs it....

Amen. We spend a lot of money on some stupid stuff in this country, and further lining the pockets of millionaire superannuitants is absolutely one of them. I tend to believe means-testing costs more than it saves, but I do think super is a particularly egregious example when we means test every other benefit. That winter energy payment thing is a real band aid on the actual problem too.

And before anyone leaps in with "but they deserve it as they paid for it through taxes". No, that's not how that works for one - and in any case, if we're worried about extracting one's pound of flesh from the government for having paid taxes, let's not forget that taxes fund all the services they've used throughout their lives anyway.

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sen8or

1778 posts

Uber Geek

#2887971 18-Mar-2022 08:15

The problem with spending on infrastructure is it is seen as lining the pockets of "rich mates" and ignoring other social needs. People forget / ignore the fact that the ones at the top don't do things by themselves, they create jobs and opportunities within the economy both directly and indirectly, but the haters never miss a chance to throw misguided barbs at the very very small %. Likewise, the tax cuts only benefiting "the rich", again ignoring the simple math principal that if you don't pay much tax to begin with, you can't save much tax with a tax cut.

The country costs X dollars to run. Sure, you can skirt around the edges of spending with cuts here and there, but the absolute basics (health, education & social) consume an awful lot of $ in any given period. If any Govt reduces their income, something has to give on the other side of the coin. We are seeing the consequences of borrow to spend on what has been the largest welfare package in quite some time with costs rising out of control (and saying its overseas influence has some merit, but when all the overseas Govts have done essentially the same thing, I think its less of an argument) and I really don't see any Govt (red/blue or other) having much joy for at least the next election cycle.

If National get in and proceed with the necessary austerity measures to reign in spending, they'll be lambasted in the media as ignoring whatever sector it is that is affected. If Labour get in, do they have what it takes to steady the economy?

Its going to be an interesting ride into 2023

Jas777

838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2888045 18-Mar-2022 10:28

antonknee:

And before anyone leaps in with "but they deserve it as they paid for it through taxes". No, that's not how that works for one - and in any case, if we're worried about extracting one's pound of flesh from the government for having paid taxes, let's not forget that taxes fund all the services they've used throughout their lives anyway.

I disagree with you, they are entitled to it. Also I think you find that for every dollar of tax they pay they might get 25 to 50 cents back, but for others who you say are entitled to it they get $1.5 plus back for every dollar of tax they pay.

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2888063 18-Mar-2022 10:58

Jas777:

I disagree with you, they are entitled to it. Also I think you find that for every dollar of tax they pay they might get 25 to 50 cents back, but for others who you say are entitled to it they get $1.5 plus back for every dollar of tax they pay.

The problem with this argument is it betrays the nature of cashflows and totally ignores the fact that the state used to provide far more assistance to older New Zealanders than it does to people today.

There's also the inconvenience of Kiwisaver, which is effectively an additional tax unless you're turning close to 65; so not only are you financing the 'entitlements' of older New Zealanders who got more out of the State, you're also being told that the expectation is you largely pay for your own retirement. In short, you're getting less out of the tax you do pay and you're also underwriting free money for people who were able to get a hell of a lot more.

Not only that, this seems to be something that opposition parties love to campaign on and then just instantly gaslight the electorate about as soon as they are elected.

antonknee

1133 posts

Uber Geek

#2888071 18-Mar-2022 11:07

sen8or:

If National get in and proceed with the necessary austerity measures to reign in spending, they'll be lambasted in the media as ignoring whatever sector it is that is affected. If Labour get in, do they have what it takes to steady the economy?

Why is reigning in government spending necessary, ergo why are austerity measures necessary?

Jas777

838 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2888118 18-Mar-2022 12:03

GV27:

Jas777:

I disagree with you, they are entitled to it. Also I think you find that for every dollar of tax they pay they might get 25 to 50 cents back, but for others who you say are entitled to it they get $1.5 plus back for every dollar of tax they pay.

The problem with this argument is it betrays the nature of cashflows and totally ignores the fact that the state used to provide far more assistance to older New Zealanders than it does to people today.

There's also the inconvenience of Kiwisaver, which is effectively an additional tax unless you're turning close to 65; so not only are you financing the 'entitlements' of older New Zealanders who got more out of the State, you're also being told that the expectation is you largely pay for your own retirement. In short, you're getting less out of the tax you do pay and you're also underwriting free money for people who were able to get a hell of a lot more.

Not only that, this seems to be something that opposition parties love to campaign on and then just instantly gaslight the electorate about as soon as they are elected.

Really, not many retired people got WFF when they had children. Some people are getting 15 years of paying no tax at all.

What do you classify as largely? For a lot it is only half

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2888178 18-Mar-2022 12:26

Jas777:

Really, not many retired people got WFF when they had children. Some people are getting 15 years of paying no tax at all.

What do you classify as largely? For a lot it is only half

15 years of paying no tax vs for some vs. 25 years of free money paid for by people still working in the hear and now isn't a super compelling argument.

The whole reason WFFTC was needed is because state services got wound back so far and living costs escalated to the point where it wasn't possible to afford to actually raise kids, and plenty of people who struggle to meet modern living costs don't qualify for it either.

I'm not sure the fact things got so out of hand that we needed a hugely gregarious pseudo-welfare scheme for working households is a major tick in the 'things are way easier now' column.

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2888205 18-Mar-2022 13:15

Feeling pretty put off by Luxon wanting to scrap mandates already. Auckland may have peaked but other places are behind us in terms of the curve.

Varkk

643 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2888209 18-Mar-2022 13:22

Jas777:

Really, not many retired people got WFF when they had children. Some people are getting 15 years of paying no tax at all.

What do you classify as largely? For a lot it is only half

There used to be a family support payment, but I think that was killed off in Richardson's "Mother of all Budgets" along with a lot of other social spending and cuts to many programs. A lot of these were programs which current retirees benefited from.

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