What will happen to National now?

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#2911324 7-May-2022 16:05

GV27:

On2or3wheels:

Even if you agree with the basic philosophy of National there's no way the world is remotely close to how it was the last time they were in & they need new ideas.

Labour lost two elections with essentially the same policy and then won the third just by changing their leader.

What they 'need' in terms of new policy is probably depressingly close to nil.

I generally agree with most of what you post but I have to contend Labour didn't just win by changing their leader they and their Green partners came second. It was Winston in a moment of spite/utu that handed them the reigns of power, along with Jacinda giving Winston one of the biggest slush/pork barrel funds this country has ever seen. All of this much to the disgust of a good deal of the people who voted for his party. It was a matter of what was right for Winston rather than where the sentiment of the majority of the voters lay.

People go on about National policies being old and stale, perhaps they are, perhaps they're not. However the same can be said about Labours policies, the age old Labour policy of shelling out money willy nilly to fix problems has been shown time and time again as the least effective/beneficial way of helping people. Some of the Covid relief packages are very good examples of this. Generally National methods have been more focussed. Labour tend the be of the ilk give a man a fish, feed him for the day whereas National is more teach a man to fish and feed him for life. Personally I much prefer the latter approach.

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Technofreak

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#2911328 7-May-2022 16:16

Noig: I'm not too sure about new ideas, just not trying to cheat the public would be one good thing. Not trying to get at the ruder of the country by promoting tax cuts( it'll manly for the rich anyway) by getting a few cent a week for the not so we'll off. At the end of the day we don't get anywhere if we don't want to pay for it. Enough borrowed from the next generation already.
The red light went on for me when he was seen with Donald's campaign cap. Since then he hasn't been able to convince me that he has moved on or away from that(right wing attitude).

Good grief let it go, plus you really need to get with the times. You've got the wrong guy.

That aside, it was just a memento of a trip to the US to observe the US elections. The media didn't bother to mention that either afixed to that cap or right along side it was a Democrat election memento. No point in providing any balance to the story now is there?

To try and hang someone out to dry over one thing like this is just silly in my opinion. True, Todd could have handled it much better but don't pass judgement on one thing. You didn't see the media making a song and dance about Jacinda's "comrade" speech at the International Union of Socialist Youth Conference.

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gzt

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#2911331 7-May-2022 16:21

Technofreak

Peters has always disappointed a bunch of people with coalition choices. The particular election you refer to is so far back I believe you're engaging in alternative history.

On2or3wheels

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#2911358 7-May-2022 17:51

Technofreak:

whereas National is more teach a man to fish and feed him for life. Personally I much prefer the latter approach.

This is certainly the preferred method & I think this is something that National voters think the party enables, but the proof just isn't there.

Labour is the one that wants to train New Zealanders up & bought in various training programmes & support for it after covid.
Labour is the one that supports apprenticeships.
Training support, cheaper schooling & tertiary is much more likely under a Labour government isn't it?

The above is no longer compatible with the right, who want to lower costs for businesses & the tax rates at any expense. Businesses & a right government no longer want to pay for pesky training & education.

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#2911361 7-May-2022 18:35

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/05/national-s-tauranga-by-election-candidate-sam-uffindell-prioritises-roading-investment-local-democracy-in-campaign-launch.html

National's Tauranga guy is going to run on their usual party policy of more "roads, roads, roads" for the area.

ezbee

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#2911383 7-May-2022 19:32

So I take it no one is going to champion Hospitals, and Medical care.
We are having a lot of medical professionals going to retire,
and already behind if we were to have expanded training, which needs funding.

Suppose it will be inevitable tax reduction lolly scramble when infrastructure needs to catch up.There is more to infrastructure than roads and underspending by multiple Governments.
Love that seems to be given for roads.

The economic boost that immigration can give only makes the infrastructure and housing question worse.
More people and precious few extra services.

Looks like it will be a road spending and tax reduction election.

Technofreak

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#2911398 7-May-2022 20:24

gzt:
Technofreak

Peters has always disappointed a bunch of people with coalition choices. The particular election you refer to is so far back I believe you're engaging in alternative history.

Less that 5 years isn't that far back unless you're a 5 or 10 year old, otherwise it's pretty recent history for an adult. You might note I didn't raise the issue of that election someone else did. I was making comment on a post where that election was mentioned. The outcome of that election is very relevant to today as, due to circumstances, history has shown that almost without exception, any government that was in power at the start of the pandemic has been re-elected. Based on that I think it's a fair bet to say if Winston hadn't been so bloody minded in 2017 we wouldn't have a Labour government now.

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Technofreak

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#2911433 7-May-2022 22:11

On2or3wheels:

Technofreak:

whereas National is more teach a man to fish and feed him for life. Personally I much prefer the latter approach.

This is certainly the preferred method & I think this is something that National voters think the party enables, but the proof just isn't there.

Labour is the one that wants to train New Zealanders up & bought in various training programmes & support for it after covid.
Labour is the one that supports apprenticeships.
Training support, cheaper schooling & tertiary is much more likely under a Labour government isn't it?

The above is no longer compatible with the right, who want to lower costs for businesses & the tax rates at any expense. Businesses & a right government no longer want to pay for pesky training & education.

If Labour is so strong on training schemes and apprenticeships how do you explain the staggering increase in the number of people on the "Jobseekers Benefit" as mentioned in this article. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127578264/nzs-official-jobless-figures-are-abject-nonsense

Cheaper schooling and tertiary? Perhaps cheaper but certainly not better if this article is anything to go by. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300576910/our-young-kiwis-are-not-achieving-in-school--some-arent-even-turning-up-to-class

Then there's the largess associated with Te Pūkenga. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124113179/mega-polytech-to-spend-2-million-on-consultants-and-hosts-staff-workshop-at-a-wellington-golf-course? I'm not sure this sort of spending improves educational opportunities.

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On2or3wheels

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#2911514 8-May-2022 11:16

Technofreak:

If Labour is so strong on training schemes and apprenticeships how do you explain the staggering increase in the number of people on the "Jobseekers Benefit" as mentioned in this article. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127578264/nzs-official-jobless-figures-are-abject-nonsense

Cheaper schooling and tertiary? Perhaps cheaper but certainly not better if this article is anything to go by. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300576910/our-young-kiwis-are-not-achieving-in-school--some-arent-even-turning-up-to-class

Then there's the largess associated with Te Pūkenga. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124113179/mega-polytech-to-spend-2-million-on-consultants-and-hosts-staff-workshop-at-a-wellington-golf-course? I'm not sure this sort of spending improves educational opportunities.

I wasn't talking about their level of performance, I certainly think there's delivery issues by Labour in various areas. I was saying that out of the two parties I believe Labour has a larger focus on this & believes more in training across the wider society, not just for the more academically minded or the rich that can afford university.

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#2912642 11-May-2022 13:50

On2or3wheels:

I wasn't talking about their level of performance, I certainly think there's delivery issues by Labour in various areas. I was saying that out of the two parties I believe Labour has a larger focus on this & believes more in training across the wider society, not just for the more academically minded or the rich that can afford university.

Saying there are delivery issues with Labour in various issues is akin to saying the Pope is a little Catholic. Having a larger 'focus' on something but spending bucketloads of money and getting no decent results, isn't really improving the situation. National introduced changes to training schemes in it's time in power too. The year of free tertiary education was the flagship policy, but where are the numbers on the actual cost and the number of additional qualified people that are the result of said policy? You know well if they were good numbers, Ardern would have found a way to let the country know about them. The reality is, Labour has some decent ideas, but not much of a clue how to achieve them, nor the acumen to execute on it post spending millions on consultants.

They don't really seem to learn from their mistakes well, on the whole, either.

Rikkitic

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#2912674 11-May-2022 14:58

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with you to some extent. Not all the way, but there is certainly an element of truth to it. I sure wish this government, or any government, was better at actually doing what they say they are going to. My personal dilemma, as always, is that I just can't see any government to the right of this one doing any better. I vote progressive not because they enthuse me, but because everything else seems so much worse.

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#2912676 11-May-2022 15:09

Rikkitic:

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with you to some extent. Not all the way, but there is certainly an element of truth to it. I sure wish this government, or any government, was better at actually doing what they say they are going to. My personal dilemma, as always, is that I just can't see any government to the right of this one doing any better. I vote progressive not because they enthuse me, but because everything else seems so much worse.

Well, to be fair, the National Government did what it said it would do, it just didn't promise much. As I have said before, in 2017 the policies of both parties were pretty much identical, with all the same things getting attention (mostly social and infra spending) so long as you exclude what Labour overpromised (Kiwibuild, billion trees, and the Winston slush/re-election fund etc etc). Things like Child Poverty, National promised to spend more actually. The difference for me was that Labour proved themselves incapable of delivering not just it's fantastical policies, but were a complete shambles for it's first term, I believe we would have got more done if the National party at the time had remained in power. As I have said before, Winston did NZ a great disservice with his petty vendetta. There is now a lot less experience in the National party than there was, which is a bit of a worry to me.

The big thing for me with Labour (other than disagreeing with many of it's policies) is that I don't trust them to do what they say they will/can, and that in 5 years they haven't really learned anything. They are less scandal-prone, but it still feels like they are learning/making it up as they go along, and there is no accountability.

On2or3wheels

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#2912746 11-May-2022 20:42

I used to vote National & personally it would probably be better for me. Once I got older & more financially secure though I stopped caring about a tax bribe & wanted the country as a whole to be better.

I don't trust National one bit. Everything is done through the lens of helping their rich business mates at any expense & the proof is there from last time & from right wing parties across the world that this is only benefiting the few.
National haven't even tried to hide this this time, as they've already told us about all the policies they want to role back (to help the rich) & we know they want to give the rich a nice big tax break. They've told us they want to focus on immigration again & we know what that means. Pretty much just go back to how everything was the last time they were in.

National has a certain belief of where they want to end up regardless of who leads it & this is what you should be looking at. Rule number 1 is profit at any cost. They believe in lower taxes & especially lower business tax rates. They believe in privatisation. They believe in less government & more free market. They believe in less worker protections & rights as this is incompatible with rule no.1. If you want to know how they will address certain things, run it through their list of priorities.

GV27

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#2912777 12-May-2022 06:15

On2or3wheels:

National haven't even tried to hide this this time, as they've already told us about all the policies they want to role back (to help the rich) & we know they want to give the rich a nice big tax break. They've told us they want to focus on immigration again & we know what that means. Pretty much just go back to how everything was the last time they were in.

So... the same as how it was under Labour pre-Covid after they swore they'd do something different, and how they announced yesterday it would go back to?

Labour's immigration policy walkbacks have been some of their biggest Ls yet this is constantly something that National is tarred with in isolation despite Labour carrying on the population ponzi and using the border reopening to carry on the party.

sen8or

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#2912790 12-May-2022 08:22

On2or3wheels:

I used to vote National & personally it would probably be better for me. Once I got older & more financially secure though I stopped caring about a tax bribe & wanted the country as a whole to be better.

I don't trust National one bit. Everything is done through the lens of helping their rich business mates at any expense & the proof is there from last time & from right wing parties across the world that this is only benefiting the few.
National haven't even tried to hide this this time, as they've already told us about all the policies they want to role back (to help the rich) & we know they want to give the rich a nice big tax break. They've told us they want to focus on immigration again & we know what that means. Pretty much just go back to how everything was the last time they were in.

National has a certain belief of where they want to end up regardless of who leads it & this is what you should be looking at. Rule number 1 is profit at any cost. They believe in lower taxes & especially lower business tax rates. They believe in privatisation. They believe in less government & more free market. They believe in less worker protections & rights as this is incompatible with rule no.1. If you want to know how they will address certain things, run it through their list of priorities.

The ultimate truth that the left hates to acknowledge is that money doesn't grow on trees. Unless you have businesses employing people (and I strongly believe in fair pay for a fair days work) and generating economic activity, then there is no money to redistribute. Love or hate her, with Maggie's "the problem with socialism, is that eventually you run out of other people's money to spend" has a truth to it. To that extent, you simply have to look after those that you want to rely on to feed the rest.

When, in the history of all governments, have they ever been able to undertake a project more efficiently than a private enterprise? How much wasteful spending do Governments get away with on mis-managing projects? Would private enterprise get away with the same? Hell no.

My pet peeve is the whole "rich mates" barb, if that is acceptable, then so is the left looking after the "no hope losers" at the bottom of the economic pile who are a drain on the economy's resources (and neither should be acceptable).

As I have stated in other posts, for me, the tax break would be well down on my list of reasons to vote National in, but the country can't afford borrow and spend politics any more, despite what new definition of borrowing Grant Robertson wants to use

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