What will happen to National now?

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Forums › Politics › What will happen to National now?

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Awrrr
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#2912792 12-May-2022 08:37

In the not-too-distant past, National had plenty of opportunities to solve all our problems. I didn't see much improvement then and I don't expect to see much in the future. Less taxes and more roads is not a path to prosperity.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912796 12-May-2022 08:44

GV27:

So... the same as how it was under Labour pre-Covid after they swore they'd do something different, and how they announced yesterday it would go back to?

Labour's immigration policy walkbacks have been some of their biggest Ls yet this is constantly something that National is tarred with in isolation despite Labour carrying on the population ponzi and using the border reopening to carry on the party.

You must get your news from Facebook. I got some actual facts from here https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466864/new-zealand-border-reopening-fully-from-end-of-july

"including sector-specific agreements to support a shift away from low-skilled migrant labour"

"it would reduce six visa categories down to one, and was designed to support an economy less reliant on lower-paid migrant workers; better at addressing productivity and meeting skills and infrastructure challenges; and increasing the overall skill level of migrants coming to New Zealand."

"it came with a median wage requirement which would be $27.76 by the time the border opened."

"He signalled an overall shift away from relying on low-paid migrant workers".

"From the end of July, all international students who meet normal entry criteria can enrol for study here ... but the future will be different, we won't be going back to National's volume over value approach." "Students in non-degree level courses not getting post-study work rights except in specified shortage and skilled occupations".

I think Labour has been very careful during the pandemic to try & hold off importing workers until NZ has had a chance to train as many as it can, & allow time for people to move jobs & things to settle after covid job loses. It's also allowed housing to try & catch up.

And the border opening is about tourists, in-demand workers could already get in. Unfortunately the walk-backs you mention are probably caused by all these sob stories that the media seemed to chase during the pandemic.

networkn

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#2912798 12-May-2022 08:53

Rikkitic:

In the not-too-distant past, National had plenty of opportunities to solve all our problems. I didn't see much improvement then and I don't expect to see much in the future. Less taxes and more roads is not a path to prosperity.

Well, they had a plan and executed it. You might want to consider what we would have done financially during Covid without being in the financial state we were as Labour took power.

As has been mentioned time and time again. There is only so much money. What you spend on health, you can't spend on education. You either raise the tax take, or you compromise on spending, or you find ways to use the money you already have, more efficiently.

National were not without its challenges to overcome as well, perhaps you forgot.

Since National were not given an inch over magically not fixing everything (despite making clear what they WOULD do, and doing it) despite those challenges, it's entirely reasonable Labour be required to meet the same standard.

GV27

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#2912799 12-May-2022 08:53

On2or3wheels:

I think Labour has been very careful during the pandemic to try & hold off importing workers until NZ has had a chance to train as many as it can, & allow time for people to move jobs & things to settle after covid job loses. It's also allowed housing to try & catch up.

"Holding off importing workers" is easy when your immigration department is a mess and your borders are closed.

The median wage requirement is $58K a year. That's stuff all in an economy where inflation is running at 7%. You're not getting neurosurgeons on $58K a year.

I can get a job on a forklift paying more than that.

But sure dude, I get my 'facts' from Facebook or whatever.

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912808 12-May-2022 09:38

GV27:

The median wage requirement is $58K a year. That's stuff all in an economy where inflation is running at 7%. You're not getting neurosurgeons on $58K a year.

As opposed to under National where many were illegally getting less than minimum wage.

networkn

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#2912809 12-May-2022 09:42

On2or3wheels:

GV27:

The median wage requirement is $58K a year. That's stuff all in an economy where inflation is running at 7%. You're not getting neurosurgeons on $58K a year.

As opposed to under National where many were illegally getting less than minimum wage.

Speaking of getting the news from Facebook....

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912816 12-May-2022 09:48

networkn:

Speaking of getting the news from Facebook....

What? There were loads of cases in the news, it was quite widespread.

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networkn

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#2912817 12-May-2022 09:52

On2or3wheels:

networkn:

Speaking of getting the news from Facebook....

What? There were loads of cases in the news, it was quite widespread.

Of the National party employing people for under the minimum wage, or legislating such? Please provide evidence.

I assume you have seen not a single employer prosecuted in the past 5 years since Labour took control of people being paid under the minimum wage?

You say you don't trust National one bit, but you trust Labour, who's leader, with a straight face, stood up repeatedly and said they would build 100K houses and a Billion trees?

GV27

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#2912828 12-May-2022 10:14

On2or3wheels:

As opposed to under National where many were illegally getting less than minimum wage.

Do you want to respond to the point I've made after you blithely making a condescending comment about how I get my facts from Facebook, while you posted a story from the state broadcaster that simply repeated the comments of the Minister without question or challenge and posted it without a shred of critical thinking?

Or are we just going back to "but National bad"?

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912843 12-May-2022 10:57

networkn:

Of the National party employing people for under the minimum wage, or legislating such? Please provide evidence.

I assume you have seen not a single employer prosecuted in the past 5 years since Labour took control of people being paid under the minimum wage?

You say you don't trust National one bit, but you trust Labour, who's leader, with a straight face, stood up repeatedly and said they would build 100K houses and a Billion trees?

Oh really, you're going to twist my comments to try & imply that I meant National were personally employing people under the minimum wage.

Very clearly we had an issue of immigrants driving down wages. This is fact & has been accepted & written about by many. We know that National was supportive of high immigration & low wages to support their business mates at the expense of New Zealanders. These are old articles while National was in power.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/union-says-immigrants-forced-to-accept-pay-below-minimum-wage/ARAM26LMPZR4CXA3ZW4TC3U2UM/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/battle-for-a-living-wage-students-obliged-to-take-jobs-at-well-below-minimum-wage/45NP346MHR7FYC5SKLM3UUYRC4/

This requires a change.

No I don't trust Labour to deliver, but as I said previously I believe that their policies are still better for a larger proportion of society.
I don't just look at a policy & say well they won't deliver I better vote National. I would look at what National would do instead. This would probably be open the floodgates to students doing low grade courses to try & gain access to NZ for starters along with a flood of immigrants in general on minimum wage.

sen8or

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#2912849 12-May-2022 11:08

A union spokesperson complaining about low wages, how was that not front page headlines???

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912850 12-May-2022 11:08

sen8or:

The ultimate truth that the left hates to acknowledge is that money doesn't grow on trees. Unless you have businesses employing people (and I strongly believe in fair pay for a fair days work) and generating economic activity, then there is no money to redistribute. Love or hate her, with Maggie's "the problem with socialism, is that eventually you run out of other people's money to spend" has a truth to it. To that extent, you simply have to look after those that you want to rely on to feed the rest.

When, in the history of all governments, have they ever been able to undertake a project more efficiently than a private enterprise? How much wasteful spending do Governments get away with on mis-managing projects? Would private enterprise get away with the same? Hell no.

My pet peeve is the whole "rich mates" barb, if that is acceptable, then so is the left looking after the "no hope losers" at the bottom of the economic pile who are a drain on the economy's resources (and neither should be acceptable).

As I have stated in other posts, for me, the tax break would be well down on my list of reasons to vote National in, but the country can't afford borrow and spend politics any more, despite what new definition of borrowing Grant Robertson wants to use

Yes & this is all good in theory & was probably true back in the day. The issue we have now is the money going to the few. We have more & more multi-national companies taking profit offshore, we have monopolies & duopolies & companies deliberately stopping any competition. If competition starts sometimes it will just be bought up by a big player.

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#2912852 12-May-2022 11:14

On2or3wheels:

Oh really, you're going to twist my comments to try & imply that I meant National were personally employing people under the minimum wage.

Very clearly we had an issue of immigrants driving down wages. This is fact & has been accepted & written about by many. We know that National was supportive of high immigration & low wages to support their business mates at the expense of New Zealanders. These are old articles while National was in power.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/union-says-immigrants-forced-to-accept-pay-below-minimum-wage/ARAM26LMPZR4CXA3ZW4TC3U2UM/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/battle-for-a-living-wage-students-obliged-to-take-jobs-at-well-below-minimum-wage/45NP346MHR7FYC5SKLM3UUYRC4/

This requires a change.

No I don't trust Labour to deliver, but as I said previously I believe that their policies are still better for a larger proportion of society.
I don't just look at a policy & say well they won't deliver I better vote National. I would look at what National would do instead. This would probably be open the floodgates to students doing low grade courses to try & gain access to NZ for starters along with a flood of immigrants in general on minimum wage.

ROFL No-one is twisting your words, if you are having trouble with people doing that, perhaps explain what you mean more clearly. But what you said before and what you have linked now, are quite different.

So in the 2017 election, when you saw JA stand up and promise 100K houses, 1 Billion trees and a bunch of other fantasy stuff, did you think to yourself, nope that isn't going to get delivered, and then compare what was actually going to be delivered to Nationals policies?

If you remove the fantasy stuff then the two parties had almost identical policies and in some key areas, Nationals spending and targets were higher.

When a seemingly intelligent human being gets up and promises 100K houses in 10 years, then how do you trust that their other 'more reasonable' promises are any more likely to get delivered? How do you trust a party that makes a policy like that, and no-one in the party goes ... umm guys, that's xxx houses a day, no-one can do that, we should not promise that?

You might like the sound of their policies, but if they aren't going to deliver them, then what good is it?

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912855 12-May-2022 11:23

GV27:

"Holding off importing workers" is easy when your immigration department is a mess and your borders are closed.

The median wage requirement is $58K a year. That's stuff all in an economy where inflation is running at 7%. You're not getting neurosurgeons on $58K a year.

I can get a job on a forklift paying more than that.

But sure dude, I get my 'facts' from Facebook or whatever.

Was this the post you wanted a reply to?
It's good you can get paid better on a forklift now, the lack of immigration has been a great opportunity for people to change jobs & move to higher wages.
Yes inflation, but that's hardly just a NZ issue.

GV27

5885 posts

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#2912883 12-May-2022 11:56

On2or3wheels:

Was this the post you wanted a reply to?
It's good you can get paid better on a forklift now, the lack of immigration has been a great opportunity for people to change jobs & move to higher wages.
Yes inflation, but that's hardly just a NZ issue.

No, my post was asking you to justify your immigration jab at National in the context of yesterday's announcement, which is a return to migration settings that were pretty much essentially the same thing that National did.

You can't, so I'm just going to save time for both of us and move on.

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