What will happen to National now?

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193 posts

Master Geek

#2912957 12-May-2022 13:24

GV27:

No, my post was asking you to justify your immigration jab at National in the context of yesterday's announcement, which is a return to migration settings that were pretty much essentially the same thing that National did.

You can't, so I'm just going to save time for both of us and move on.

I listed the changes for you previously, they seem quite different from what National did, especially around students & the low grade courses used as a gateway to NZ.
I have the previous National term to justify my jab.

National in fact walked back their immigration reduction just before a previous election due to pressure from business.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/policy-series-where-do-the-parties-stand-on-immigration/EYYN6THUM7TSQRXB6FRA5VIPSE/

"With net migration numbers at record levels the National Government announced its own tightening of immigration rules, but softened the changes after strong push-back from businesses and industry groups who said they couldn't find Kiwis to fill certain jobs."

Again National will always act a certain way.

GV27

5885 posts

Uber Geek

#2912962 12-May-2022 13:41

On2or3wheels:

"With net migration numbers at record levels the National Government announced its own tightening of immigration rules, but softened the changes after strong push-back from businesses and industry groups who said they couldn't find Kiwis to fill certain jobs."

Labour was still pouring in 50K people per annum until Covid stopped them. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Labour campaigned on slashing migration and then just didn't.

It took a global pandemic to make them actually follow through on something.

But sure, shrewd management, principled stance, red team good, blue team bad, and so on.

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912966 12-May-2022 13:59

GV27:

Labour was still pouring in 50K people per annum until Covid stopped them. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Labour campaigned on slashing migration and then just didn't.

It took a global pandemic to make them actually follow through on something.

But sure, shrewd management, principled stance, red team good, blue team bad, and so on.

Oh for sure I don't deny that & there were many articles about it over the time. I'm hoping that they were more valuable to the country than the ones that National would have let in, but there's probably no proof either way. I know Labour was sending quite a few students back with questionable courses.

The problem we have is all the lobbying & media sob stories always pushing for people to be able to stay. I see the Greens as a bit of an issue for Labour in this regard, they would probably let anybody in!

sen8or

1778 posts

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#2912976 12-May-2022 14:25

On2or3wheels:

I listed the changes for you previously, they seem quite different from what National did, especially around students & the low grade courses used as a gateway to NZ.
I have the previous National term to justify my jab.

National in fact walked back their immigration reduction just before a previous election due to pressure from business.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/policy-series-where-do-the-parties-stand-on-immigration/EYYN6THUM7TSQRXB6FRA5VIPSE/

"With net migration numbers at record levels the National Government announced its own tightening of immigration rules, but softened the changes after strong push-back from businesses and industry groups who said they couldn't find Kiwis to fill certain jobs."

Again National will always act a certain way.

The guts of the problem is that NZers, for whatever reason, weren't prepared to take on roles in industries crying out for more workers. You could ofcourse argue that those industries need to pay their staff more, but we are now seeing the flow on effects of having to pay staff more with a rise in prices across the board. As much as the Govt is putting up smoke/mirrors in the name of Covid and Ukraine (and certainly, there is an impact from them to be sure), they refuse to acknowledge (or is that "reject the premise") any of their actions outside of those two specific events have contributed to the current situation.

NZers want competition it seems in everything but their pay packet

On2or3wheels

193 posts

Master Geek

#2912993 12-May-2022 15:00

The huge issue with not paying enough for wages, is the middle class end up subsidising these businesses so they can pay minimum wage. This is via our taxes to pay for the minimum pay workers to receive working for families, accommodation supplements etc.
The extremely wealthy will often manage to avoid paying much tax & the poor end up getting it back through the benefits leaving the middle class as the losers. Yes I've ignored GST.

quickymart

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#2915105 17-May-2022 14:16

https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/128669464/tauranga-nominations-close-peters-rules-himself-out

National might be able to breathe a little easier now, Winston has said he won't run in Tauranga for the by-election.

quickymart

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#2926489 14-Jun-2022 15:51

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-heres-an-idea-that-chest-thumping-chris-luxon-could-champion/MQ6PGGJ3Y45SFRHUUMY62PTWPE/ (paywalled)

An opinion piece on what Luxon could do about gangs, co-governance, etc instead of the chest-beating he's described as doing here.

Mighty Ape

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GV27

5885 posts

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#2926634 15-Jun-2022 07:15

quickymart:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-heres-an-idea-that-chest-thumping-chris-luxon-could-champion/MQ6PGGJ3Y45SFRHUUMY62PTWPE/ (paywalled)

An opinion piece on what Luxon could do about gangs, co-governance, etc instead of the chest-beating he's described as doing here.

Seriously, quoting Simon Wilson on National Party policy is like consulting David Farrar over Labour policy.

Wilson has been provided plenty of opportunity to hold the government to account over the last five years over almost everything and has missed it by that much, but is capable of pumping out National-related snark at the drop of a hat. His Auckland issues columns ignore everything outside the Grey Lynn/Mt Eden bubble and you'd think the city ended at Pt Chevalier.

There's plenty of valid criticism from far more qualified and less partisan people around than him:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/468687/gangs-legislation-should-be-treated-with-suspicion-expert-jarrod-gilbert

quickymart

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#2926639 15-Jun-2022 08:14

Hence why I called it an opinion piece 😃 but thanks for the Radio New Zealand link, interesting reading.

GV27

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#2926642 15-Jun-2022 08:21

quickymart:

Hence why I called it an opinion piece 😃 but thanks for the Radio New Zealand link, interesting reading.

I feel like there's 'opinions' and then there's 'Simon Wilson's opinion on National' and those are kind of quite different things lmao.

The talk of 'this won't work' is easy but justifying how the status quo is somehow a blinding success is something National is failing to demand from cheerleaders.

Seems we have the choice of what we have now that doesn't work and what we could have that also won't work. Yet one is more superior to the other?

Rikkitic

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#2927803 15-Jun-2022 11:23

When I read something like this, I can only think Luxon is out of his mind. He is either dangerously inept, dangerously stupid, or just a cynical, immoral populist. Ideas like this are dead in the water before they are even conceived of. Of course I am anti-National anyway, but is this just my bias showing or is it really as bad as I think?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Technofreak

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#2927843 15-Jun-2022 12:15

Rikkitic:

When I read something like this, I can only think Luxon is out of his mind. He is either dangerously inept, dangerously stupid, or just a cynical, immoral populist. Ideas like this are dead in the water before they are even conceived of. Of course I am anti-National anyway, but is this just my bias showing or is it really as bad as I think?

What ideas are you referring to? I've read the article and don't see too much to complain about.

The gangs need to be sorted out and that takes a multi pronged approach. One of those prongs is sorting out our economy so that working and making an honest living gets everyone ahead so there's no incentive to resort to crime.

If one of those prongs is to stop gangs advertising themselves as a desirable organisation to belong to and that means attacking their social media then I have no problem with that.

Comments like this are right on the money and go right to the heart of starting to fix our economy.

The government had just spent $9.5 billion "putting more fuel on the inflation fire" while lifting interest rates with the two approaches working at cross-purposes.

National did not favour a policy of austerity and cuts and wanted to support important sectors such as health and education while ensuring the money was being well-spent.

"The problem is the government doesn't understand - they confuse spending a dollar delivering an outcome actually in the middle of something called execution and delivery and you can actually do quite different things to get outcomes with money."

So, no I don't think he is out of his mind, nor do I think he is inept, stupid, cynical or immoral. I have no reason to like the guy, I lost my job under his watch at Air NZ, but I certainly don't think he is any of those things.

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Rikkitic

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#2927907 15-Jun-2022 12:47

What he is talking about is a Chinese-style 'social police' censorship model. It is a direct assault on civil liberties and freedom of thought. It is the kind of dumb idea someone might throw out in the pub after a round of heavy drinking. It is not fit for serious political debate. If this is an example of how he thinks, he should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of government.

I hate gangs, but this kind of thing is not the way to combat them. It would also be impossible to enforce. It is a dumb idea and the fact he even proposed it makes me question his mental state.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

gzt

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#2927924 15-Jun-2022 13:18

Imo the uptick in firearms being used in gang disputes is partly if not mainly a result of this tactic being imported from Aus with 501s. Gangs in NZ have tended to avoid use of firearms because leaders know it brings instant and sustained police attention.

Police have made multiple arrests in relation to the recent uptick and use of firearms. Some of the commentary would have you believe the police are doing absolutely nothing.

Technofreak

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#2930124 15-Jun-2022 20:47

Rikkitic:

What he is talking about is a Chinese-style 'social police' censorship model. It is a direct assault on civil liberties and freedom of thought. It is the kind of dumb idea someone might throw out in the pub after a round of heavy drinking. It is not fit for serious political debate. If this is an example of how he thinks, he should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of government.

I hate gangs, but this kind of thing is not the way to combat them. It would also be impossible to enforce. It is a dumb idea and the fact he even proposed it makes me question his mental state.

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned with anti social groups of people like gangs who are so far outside the norm of what is expected as normal social behaviour they lose the right to their civil liberties if those liberties are being exercised to infringe the rights of ordinary people.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
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