What will happen to National now?

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#2953388 11-Aug-2022 11:05

antonknee:

I’ll engage in some what about Ian of my own. National claim to be the party of personal responsibility, the party of family values, the party of law and order. They don’t live up to those claims either.

What does that even mean? What, specifically, are you referring to? A single incident, or everything National has ever done? Without any context this is just bad-tempered hot air from someone who just doesn't like National. Petty sniping. It is the kind of ploy that Donald Trump and his enablers have used to undermine the American political system. If you have criticisms, make them, but leave the empty sound bites out of it.

Rikkitic

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#2953390 11-Aug-2022 11:08

To get back to Uffindell, he apparently hasn't beaten anyone else up so far, but according to this RNZ item, he was a real pig as a student, even by student standards, not to mention maybe just a wee bit misogynist.

Of course there is nothing exceptional about students being pigs, but Uffindell and his mates seem to have taken it to another level. Yes, he is older now and has grown up and regrets past indiscretions and is such a much better person bla bla bla, but all of these things taken together, and who knows what else there still might be, do raise legitimate questions about his character. I don't see John Key or Christopher Luxon as paragons of moral virtue either, but I doubt they felt a need to get up to these kinds of things in their student days. There seems to be something fundamentally unwholesome about National's Tauranga MP.

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elpenguino

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#2953393 11-Aug-2022 11:15

GV27:

antonknee:

I’ll engage in some what about Ian of my own. National claim to be the party of personal responsibility, the party of family values, the party of law and order. They don’t live up to those claims either.

What does that even mean? What, specifically, are you referring to? A single incident, or everything National has ever done? Without any context this is just bad-tempered hot air from someone who just doesn't like National. Petty sniping. It is the kind of ploy that Donald Trump and his enablers have used to undermine the American political system. If you have criticisms, make them, but leave the empty sound bites out of it.

I am guessing this is not an example antonknee will come up with but cast your mind back to paula bennett. Now, you may recall she was a bit tubby. Not the end of the world , happens to many of us.

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

GV27

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#2953399 11-Aug-2022 11:21

elpenguino:

I am guessing this is not an example antonknee will come up with but cast your mind back to paula bennett. Now, you may recall she was a bit tubby. Not the end of the world , happens to many of us.

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

I don't even know where to begin with this. I need a break from this thread.

Rikkitic

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#2953401 11-Aug-2022 11:26

elpenguino:

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

Sorry, but this is going too far. Bariatric surgery is a legitimate medical procedure and it is inappropriate to comment on someone's personal circumstances in this regard. I never like Paula Bennet as a politician but her weight issues have nothing to do with it and are not a suitable topic of discussion. This is really bad form.

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networkn

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#2953402 11-Aug-2022 11:27

antonknee: Yeah I’m sorry @networkn, but I find it incredibly hypocritical and quite telling that rather than accept criticism of National (which is after all the point of this thread), you instead deflect everything on the basis of “yeah but the other team”. Two wrongs don’t, in fact, make a right.

It’s also a little frustrating that you keep talking about Labour’s problems, to deflect criticism of National, and claiming they were the worst incoming government in history - without actually pointing out what those problems are. It’s especially galling that this is generally in response to criticism of specific National issues and scandals.

You’re what abouting the most open and transparent government? I’ll engage in some what about Ian of my own. National claim to be the party of personal responsibility, the party of family values, the party of law and order. They don’t live up to those claims either.

Sorry, not sorry, right?

Actually, this thread isn't called the bash National thread, it's just what seems to happen by the 'left' supporters, similar to what happens in the other thread by the 'right' I'd suggest.

My 'defense' of them was in relation to the fact you claimed that only National are guilty of similar offences and mishandling of things, which is clearly untrue.

networkn

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#2953403 11-Aug-2022 11:29

elpenguino:

I am guessing this is not an example antonknee will come up with but cast your mind back to paula bennett. Now, you may recall she was a bit tubby. Not the end of the world , happens to many of us.

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

You should be ashamed of yourself for posting this.

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networkn

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#2953406 11-Aug-2022 11:39

GV27:

elpenguino:

I am guessing this is not an example antonknee will come up with but cast your mind back to paula bennett. Now, you may recall she was a bit tubby. Not the end of the world , happens to many of us.

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

I don't even know where to begin with this. I need a break from this thread.

Same. I'm out for a bit.

gzt

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#2953434 11-Aug-2022 12:39

quickymart: Either that or (yet another) by-election. Like I said, if that happens, I hope National foot the total bill for it, not the taxpayer - why should we have to pay the bill for this screw up? So much for them being the "fiscally responsible" party.

I disagree. This comes up nearly every time there's a.byelection on the horizon. You can't put a price on democracy like that.

quickymart

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#2953490 11-Aug-2022 13:08

Oh I agree - to a point, but given that National caused this to happen due to their poor candidate choice, they should be held accountable if another by-election has to happen so soon after the last one.

Although having said that, if there is another one you can bet your bottom dollar that any candidate National puts forward will be scrutinised over their past as much as is humanly possible.

elpenguino

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#2953497 11-Aug-2022 13:29

Rikkitic:

elpenguino:

Instead of taking personal responsibility for her weight issue, how did she deal with it? She used an external intervention i.e. surgery. Bah, what does that have to do with anything, you say? It's a symbolic example that even someone tied to upper levels of the national party with a big stake in the principles they espouse , such as personal responsibility, needs help from others and can't always do everything for themselves.

Sorry, but this is going too far. Bariatric surgery is a legitimate medical procedure and it is inappropriate to comment on someone's personal circumstances in this regard. I never like Paula Bennet as a politician but her weight issues have nothing to do with it and are not a suitable topic of discussion. This is really bad form.

I agree that there are some areas which should be off limit for discussion around politics. Accordingly, I won't mock anyone for their medical issues, appearance, name, the religion they're born into or anything about themselves which they cannot change.

My logic for mentioning PBs weight issue is that it was related to her behaviour - which was something that she could change but did not. In fact, of all people, there is no one but each of us who takes responsibility for what we put into our own mouth.

I would hope this explains my statement. If it remains unpalatable, I withdraw and apologise.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

networkn

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#2953498 11-Aug-2022 13:36

I don't think anyone was having trouble understanding what you were getting at. It's wrong and has no place here, or to be honest, anywhere. You know nothing of her circumstances, but that isn't even the point.

Rikkitic

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#2953503 11-Aug-2022 13:57

elpenguino:

My logic for mentioning PBs weight issue is that it was related to her behaviour - which was something that she could change but did not. In fact, of all people, there is no one but each of us who takes responsibility for what we put into our own mouth.

I would hope this explains my statement. If it remains unpalatable, I withdraw and apologise.

You need to understand more about this and you do need to apologise. The issue is much more complicated than you seem to think and you should do some reading about it.

The bottom line here is that it is simply not acceptable to attack people for their appearance, whether related to weight or something else. I admit to also being guilty of this. Some things may squeak through under the mantle of parody or caricature if they are done in a good-natured manner, but this is not one of those.

Body image is a huge psychological problem for a vast number of people, especially women, and it leads to enormous suffering and even life-threatening eating disorders. It is not something that should be minimised. There are also very real genetic and metabolic factors involved in excessive weight gain. It is not just a simple matter of lacking willpower and eating too much. If you do not have expert knowledge of an individual's personal circumstances, you have no business commenting on them.

Whatever led to Paula Bennet's decision to have surgery, she seems to be a much happier person today going by her public persona. Why should you have a problem with that?

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Varkk

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#2953530 11-Aug-2022 15:21

mattwnz:

I have been pretty disappointed in him as leader overall and thought he would be far batter. I expected him to be as good as John Key. He sounded pretty shaky in this interview, esp when he said that National was a party of Law and Order. Yet look at their recent history. Too many double standards imo

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#2953719 12-Aug-2022 07:50

quickymart: Oh I agree - to a point, but given that National caused this to happen due to their poor candidate choice, they should be held accountable if another by-election has to happen so soon after the last one.

It's not as if they or any party would pay for it. Undesirable and never going to happen anyway. The next best thing if you're concerned about cost is delaying a resignation and keeping an mp until the next election. Three months maybe that would be ok. Eighteen months to general election in this case. Like the idea of keeping in parliament for 18 months? ; ). Didn't think so, but that's the realistic alternative, MP still getting paid and benefits : )

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