What will happen to National now?

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5885 posts

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#3079119 24-May-2023 06:27

sir1963:

How about businesses that expect their staff to wear black pants (no jeans/trackies etc), black shoes, etc. The business can deduct the cost of the tops as a business expense the workers can't, shall we take that deduction from businesses ?

Thank you for noticing that sometimes we treat things differently in the tax system. That is entirely my point. The absolutist consistency people demand when it comes to interest deductions on property investment is a fantasy.

Again, it doesn't exist and never has done. Investors just don't like this one because they feel their on the wrong side of it. I can't claim a portion of my mortgage for my salaried job that I do from a home office, but contractors can - and indeed, some property investors as well.

Sorry, but this sudden panic about consistency in the tax system needs to be seen as what it is - extremely convenient moralising at best, and cynical tantrum-throwing at worst.

GV27

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#3079120 24-May-2023 06:32

And if you want to claim some sort of moral high ground here through victim status, tell me why a struggling family with a huge mortgage and increasing interest payments should get no deduction, but the taxes they pay should go towards someone else underwriting an identical building being used in the same way and for the exact same purpose; i.e. long term accommodation, during a decades-long housing affordability crisis.

sir1963

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#3079457 24-May-2023 19:20

GV27:

sir1963:

How about businesses that expect their staff to wear black pants (no jeans/trackies etc), black shoes, etc. The business can deduct the cost of the tops as a business expense the workers can't, shall we take that deduction from businesses ?

Thank you for noticing that sometimes we treat things differently in the tax system. That is entirely my point. The absolutist consistency people demand when it comes to interest deductions on property investment is a fantasy.

Again, it doesn't exist and never has done. Investors just don't like this one because they feel their on the wrong side of it. I can't claim a portion of my mortgage for my salaried job that I do from a home office, but contractors can - and indeed, some property investors as well.

Sorry, but this sudden panic about consistency in the tax system needs to be seen as what it is - extremely convenient moralising at best, and cynical tantrum-throwing at worst.

With the clothing example, exactly which business was treated tax wise differently from any other ? And which employees were treated differently tax wise than any other ?

PAYE is a different tax system to business tax, which is different to GST.

If you feel the tax system is entitled to be a political tool, how soon before it becomes a religious, racial, gender, sexual orientation punishment tool used by the government of the day?

Would you be happy with the argument that Landlords supply housing to those that can not afford to buy and the government is unable to supply, so because they do such a valuable social service they should pay zero tax ? Its logical, has good social outcomes, encourages competition among suppliers.

Perhaps negotiate with local councils and get water meters fitted in return for lower rates, the tenants are liable for the water, not the landlord.

How much of a justified punishment war do you want politicians and business people to have ?

quickymart

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#3079461 24-May-2023 19:35

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/housing-density-national-party-leader-christopher-luxon-will-change-rules-greenfields-development-favoured/U62YB2BGAJD5JGLACUQMAEUNGY/

At least the anti-vaxx nutters didn't show up.

sir1963

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#3079467 24-May-2023 20:12

GV27:

And if you want to claim some sort of moral high ground here through victim status, tell me why a struggling family with a huge mortgage and increasing interest payments should get no deduction, but the taxes they pay should go towards someone else underwriting an identical building being used in the same way and for the exact same purpose; i.e. long term accommodation, during a decades-long housing affordability crisis.

They are NOT same. One is used to make money as a business, the other isn't. Landlords pay taxes on profits just like every other business.

Why should childless couples underwrite the tax system so people who can have kids can get them healthcare, education, etc. How is that not rubbing salt into the wound...YOU can't have kids, but hey help pay for MINE.

If thats your train of thought then my personal car and all its expenses should be tax deductible , I use it for exactly the same as I would if I got a taxi to work.

My oven is used to cook food, same as a restaurant, add on my dining room table and chairs to that, and the microwave and dishwasher, in fact lets just add on the square footage of the whole kitchen too.

Business have electricity, so does my house we both use it for lighting and heating. And we are told a warm house saves the health system money, so it makes sense that we get a heating tax deduction. We even get the government paying winter heating bonus, so it all ties in nicely.

Chinese could not vote in NZ until 1952 and denied the right to work in many professions too. There were poll taxes against Chinese immigrants. That was palatable to the NZ population and to the government, however (most of us) find it utterly repugnant now.

The USA did that too for both the Chinese and Irish as well as African Americans.

Now look at the USA with all its anti LGBTQ etc laws being enacted in various states, do you REALLY think you justifying one form of discrimination will not allow another group to do the same to suit their political base ?

Imagine Brian Tamiki getting in and making "other religions" non charitable, after all there is only one REAL religion in his and his follower eyes.

THAT is the danger of treating taxes, policies, etc as tools to punish groups because of ideology.

If YOU feel stepping over that line is acceptable, someone else will too, and maybe its you who suffers.

I would fight that too from the same moral standpoint, we do not isolate people and groups and make punishing them acceptable.

gzt

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#3079491 24-May-2023 21:49

Luxon decides to roll back on housing density in existing suburbs:

NZHerald: Known as the Medium Density Residential Standards (MDRS), they are designed to prevent urban sprawl. They’re contained in the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Act, which all parties in Parliament except Act voted for unanimously in December 2021. Luxon was the National leader at the time of the vote and his deputy, Nicola Willis, was one of the bill’s principal sponsors.

gzt

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#3079497 24-May-2023 22:06

Seems like Birkenhead is getting ready to replace the Orewa Rotary Club:

NZHerald: But most of the questions he received afterwards were expressed as complaints about other issues, especially race relations and the role of Māori in society. Luxon seemed to be walking a fine line with his answers. “Where do you stand on the fact that the Māori language is given priority?” asked a woman called Rita, who said she had emigrated from Britain 20 years ago. The audience applauded.

Sounds like Luxon even had some difficulty moving the audience away from that topic. It's unfortunate this kind of thing seems like a placard waving issue for many in the audience. Perhaps Luxon could point to New Zealand's location on a map of the world and explain a few things.

Sharesies kids

Free kids accounts - trade shares and funds (NZ, US) with Sharesies (affiliate link).

GV27

5885 posts

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#3079511 25-May-2023 06:08

sir1963:

If you feel the tax system is entitled to be a political tool, how soon before it becomes a religious, racial, gender, sexual orientation punishment tool used by the government of the day?

The tax system is a political tool. They already do all these things and have done for some time. The whole idea of a progressive tax system is inherently political. The world has not exploded as a result.

It's real simple: You're not getting a deductions because it's limited. There's a whole section of the tax act about limitations. It's not like landlords are suddenly being picked on. The rest of the world jut gets on with it.

Ironic because the real, actual tax issues around property investment like leaky building repair and upgrades to meet Healthy Homes standards (both things we actually want to encourage in rentals but are current not eligible for deductions) get ignored because almost of the oxygen in the room is being used for feet-stamping about interest deductibility.

sir1963

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#3079513 25-May-2023 07:07

GV27:

It's not like landlords are suddenly being picked on.

Oh ????

GV27

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#3079514 25-May-2023 07:12

sir1963:

Oh ????

No, it is not.

I hope this has been most enlightening for you.

sir1963

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#3079529 25-May-2023 08:58

GV27:

sir1963:

Oh ????

No, it is not.

I hope this has been most enlightening for you.

Because you say so right ?

But yes it has been enlightening for me. It has changed my entire attitude about how and where I invest my money, I am starting my first investment in Australia, it will be added to from the saving made by no longer making charity donations

NZ is welcome to equality through poverty.

I will be increasing all my rents to "Market rates", that will bring in another 50K a year, enable me to clear my mortgages faster so the interest deduction loss no longer impacts me.

That will also enable me to buy a holiday home in Surfers Paradise so us, the kids and grandkids have a cheap place to holiday. Air BnB during the other periods will more than pay the expenses.

Each of my kids will end up with a mortgage free home before they are 40.

There will be money in Australia for them when things get worse here and they need an exit plan

And within 5 years I will be exiting the 23% who pay 80% of the taxes.

So yes, you want to punish me, want to call me greedy, etc , etc then I will act that way.

I will look after MY family to the exclusion of all others

I have learned, thank you.

Congratulations on your Pyrrhic victory

GV27

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#3079531 25-May-2023 09:06

sir1963:

Because you say so right ?

That depends on whether you value informed opinion or ZB level rants from people who mistake being born early enough to accumulate affordable houses before they became out of reach for everyday Kiwis for being some sort of financial genius.

You're the one going on about pyrrhic victories, but this kind of attitude and the desire of National to pander to it is exactly why people my age won't vote for them and leave the country for good. So who wins then?

sir1963

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#3079544 25-May-2023 09:36

GV27:

sir1963:

Because you say so right ?

That depends on whether you value informed opinion or ZB level rants from people who mistake being born early enough to accumulate affordable houses before they became out of reach for everyday Kiwis for being some sort of financial genius.

You're the one going on about pyrrhic victories, but this kind of attitude and the desire of National to pander to it is exactly why people my age won't vote for them and leave the country for good. So who wins then?

Your opinion is not informed. Your opinion presumes everyone will behave and do exactly what you have decided will happen and there is no backlash, no down side, no consequences. And that is patently untrue.

Small towns understand what happens when you take away investment , they die.

But you wont, because those other countries will not pander to your demands either. But if you are well educated, highly skilled and will earn a good pay, I say go for it, you and your family will be better off for it.

I as a parent have done my thing, I have ensured my next generation thrives.

And on the plus side, your leaving will free up a house and a job (?) for someone else.

And you have it wrong, National looks after those that create wealth to subsidise those who dont from the added taxes they pay. Take away the wealth, you take away the taxes, no one gets anything.

Labour now looks after those who do not create wealth and punish those who do.

I had voted Labour the last 2 times and would have again except for the "loop hole" lie

I have never used rental agents, I have keep rents as low as I can, but I have been taught well by you.

Thank you

And what happens when the 23% who pay 80% of the taxes say "NO". ?

GV27

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#3079554 25-May-2023 10:01

sir1963:

And what happens when the 23% who pay 80% of the taxes say "NO". ?

What, people like me? There's plenty of well-paid middle class people who have had a gutsful of perpetual victimhood from investors.

As for informed opinion, all I've done is confront you with the realities of tax that don't line up with your sweeping generalisations.

You on the other hand, want to be upset about being denied an interest deduction that ultimately means investors can pay less tax, but then want to claim some sort of moral high ground about the country being dependent on you as a taxpayer. You need to pick an angle and stick with it.

sir1963

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#3079567 25-May-2023 11:25

GV27:

sir1963:

And what happens when the 23% who pay 80% of the taxes say "NO". ?

What, people like me? There's plenty of well-paid middle class people who have had a gutsful of perpetual victimhood from investors.

As for informed opinion, all I've done is confront you with the realities of tax that don't line up with your sweeping generalisations.

You on the other hand, want to be upset about being denied an interest deduction that ultimately means investors can pay less tax, but then want to claim some sort of moral high ground about the country being dependent on you as a taxpayer. You need to pick an angle and stick with it.

Victimhood ?

ALL investors have ever asked for is to be treated just like every other business, which they are.

Vape shops, brothels, coal mines, grey hound racing, tobacco stores, Psychic healers, gun shops, etc etc etc can ALL deduct interest.

I believe sanitarium should be considered a business, same with Gloriavale and other "religious" businesses who pay zero tax on their profits even while they have multi million dollar profits.

And no, all you have done is confront me with your opinion and you ignore all the inconvenient realities that will cause, ie no more investment, New Houses will not cost less to build, they simply wont build enough, and the crisis get worse with any investors being scared off. Capricious governments loose trust and stop investment.

Landlords had a legitimate business (and one that EVERY other business gets still) expense taken away, it was not denied, it was removed.

But as I say, I have alternatives that I will use that means that issue becomes irrelevant , increase the rents to market rates and pay off the debts quicker.

I will also shift the rentals from being in my name to a business, that way I will get to pay 28% tax vs 39% too. Short term cost for long term gain, and the legal fees will be deductible.

I have ZERO problems with paying taxes, I have argued against tax reductions by National and will argue this again too if they get into power, but I will also argue that you do not single out people and groups for punitive action for political expediency.

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