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freitasm
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  #3026459 24-Jan-2023 16:23
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SaltyNZ:

 

Clearly the Australian tanks have a flip down sausage & onion bbq. What would a modern New Zealand tank have?

 

 

A pie warmer.





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neb

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  #3026461 24-Jan-2023 16:26
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freitasm:

SaltyNZ:

 

Clearly the Australian tanks have a flip down sausage & onion bbq. What would a modern New Zealand tank have?

 

 

A pie warmer.

 

 

Excellent idea! A scalding-hot pie to the face makes a lethal point-defence weapon.

 

 

You could also use them to patch holes in the armour, drop them under the tracks for more traction, feed them to stray dogs whose owners have fled... heck, if you were really, really desperate you could probably even eat the things.

WolfmanNZ
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  #3026463 24-Jan-2023 16:31
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... heck, if you were really, really desperate you could probably even eat the things.

 

 

 

Only if you blow on it first. Besides which, sounds like it may be a nuclear escalation.


ezbee
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  #3026655 24-Jan-2023 19:57
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A Thermette ?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/lifestyle/104910335/the-invention-that-launched-a-million-cups-of-tea

 

Bengazi Boiler if you will. Least amount of fuel/time between you and tea.

 

On Lindybeige a British volunteer describes the modern equivalent as essential kit.
Made in Britain | Ghillie Kettle Company | England (ghillie-kettle.co.uk)
US volunteers did not bring any mess kit at all no cups or anything. 
US military expects catering to be everywhere :-) 

 


Some may not like it as he is a bit of a wideboy, but lots of character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbD4WBqPg4


neb

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  #3026658 24-Jan-2023 20:03
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ezbee:


A Thermette ?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/lifestyle/104910335/the-invention-that-launched-a-million-cups-of-tea

 

 

Should probably go into the Annoy thread but it's a followup to a post in this thread, so: People who translate measurements to ridiculous numbers of significant figures. From TFA:

 

 

His war records describe him as 27, unmarried, five feet 8 inches (172.72 centimetres) tall

 

 

So a measurement taken to the nearest inch, 25.4mm, or possibly not even that, suddenly becomes accurate to one tenth of a millimeter when it's converted to metric.

elpenguino
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  #3026663 24-Jan-2023 20:22
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Some interesting chat in this thread!

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned vlad vexler https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler

 

He's a political philosopher and has some great insights into why Putin and other Russians are acting the way they are. He's Russian himself but has clearly lived in the West long enough to explain the situation in our terms.

 

 





Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


neb

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  #3026667 24-Jan-2023 20:35
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elpenguino:

Some interesting chat in this thread!

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned vlad vexler https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler

 

 

Man, that guy's presentation is annoying.

 

 

I really prefer Perun's coverage, very well researched, insighful, just enough snark to make it fun, and technically excellent. If you look at his most recent one it covers a lot of the same material as the bits of Vexler I listened to but with masses of factual material rather than a lot of opinion and melodrama.

elpenguino
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  #3026668 24-Jan-2023 20:41
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neb:
elpenguino:

 

Some interesting chat in this thread!

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned vlad vexler https://www.youtube.com/@VladVexler

 

Man, that guy's presentation is annoying. I really prefer Perun's coverage, very well researched, insighful, just enough snark to make it fun, and technically excellent. If you look at his most recent one it covers a lot of the same material as the bits of Vexler I listened to but with masses of factual material rather than a lot of opinion and melodrama.

 

Perun is good for facts and figures but does not cover the emotion and logic behind Putin's motivations. So between them you can cover the how as well as the why.





Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


  #3026685 24-Jan-2023 21:55
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ezbee:
A Thermette ?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/lifestyle/104910335/the-invention-that-launched-a-million-cups-of-tea

 

Bengazi Boiler if you will. Least amount of fuel/time between you and tea.

 

Actually, I think I remember that there is a Thermette built in as standard equipment in the NZ LAV, and that the Aussies were very jealous of Kiwi soldiers' easy access to a quick cuppa. LOL

 

Now if I could just remember when & where I read that ...


ezbee
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  #3026956 25-Jan-2023 13:28
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Thermette, possibly also the favorite of every rail & road gang in the past, maybe not so much now.

Yeh Vlad has his wordy style as a philosopher.
More digestible are probably his Q&As fireside chat.
The deeper detailed philosophical discussion can go on a bit. 
The Russian Gogol one 'Russia where are you going' was kinda where is this going.
Oh... ChatGPT gave me the short story...
""
You may be referring to the novel "Dead Souls" by Nikolai Gogol, which is considered a classic of Russian literature. The title "Dead Souls" is a play on words in Russian, as it can also be translated to "Where are you going, Russia?"
""

 

Dead Souls rushing forward to who knows where? Russia ?  ZZZZZZZZ

 

Perun is certainly your numbers guy.

 

1420 can be a bit of a trip.
A public survey, in a place where you are not free to say what you really think. 
Some are open, some kinda with the program with almost a wink, and others seem very true believers.

 

It does take something to go out on the street and ask people if they feel like cannon fodder !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHbvH92z-ME


K8Toledo
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  #3027198 26-Jan-2023 03:00
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Just in from NYT:

 

Germany Confirms It Will Send Leopard Tanks to Ukraine

 

Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced on Wednesday that Germany would send its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and allow other nations to send their own, relenting after weeks of domestic and international pressure to deliver armored vehicles aimed at helping Kyiv regain territory seized by Russia.

 

The move came after U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that the White House would announce as early as Wednesday that it would send M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, appearing to assuage Mr. Scholz’s reluctance to send tanks without Washington also doing so.

 

The German-made Leopard 2s are widely distributed across Europe, and Germany’s decision immediately prompted officials in Finland, the Netherlands and Spain to say that they would seek to send tanks to Ukraine or were open to doing so. Poland said on Tuesday that it had sought Germany’s permission to send Leopard tanks from its own stocks.

 

“This decision follows our well-known line of supporting Ukraine to the best of our ability,” Mr. Scholz said in Berlin. “We are acting internationally in a closely coordinated and concerted fashion.”

 

Ukraine’s allies have sought to strengthen its military without prompting Russia to further escalate the war, and some leaders had worried that battle tanks might cross that line. A U.S.-led meeting of allies at Ramstein Air Base in Germany last week failed to reach an agreement to provide the tanks.

 

But Germany did say that it would begin training Ukrainians on how to use the tanks in case of a future deal, and it encouraged other European nations with Leopards to do the same.

 

On Wednesday, the government said that it would send a battalion of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks directly from its army stock. It said it would send another Leopard 2 battalion in a second step, but did not say when or specify whether they would come from its current stocks or directly from the industry.

 

Ukrainian tank crews will also begin training in Germany on maintenance, repair and logistics, Mr. Scholz’s spokesman, Steffen Hebestreit, said in a statement.

 

The Leopard 2, first introduced in 1979, is used by 13 European armies, according to the European Council on Foreign Relations, and these militaries have an estimated 2,000 vehicles.

 

It is one of the world’s leading battle tanks and would offer a big step forward in capability for Ukraine, which has been using Soviet-era tanks. The vehicles could be of particular value as the war enters its second year, with Ukraine looking to reclaim lost territory and expecting a Russian spring offensive. Ukraine’s top military commander, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhnyi, has said that Kyiv needs about 300 Western tanks and 600 Western armored fighting vehicles to make a difference.

 

The debate over the Leopards became something of a test for the German chancellor, with some German politicians and European leaders arguing that Berlin was not only missing a chance for leadership in Europe, but also hindering its own allies. The debate spurred a flurry of memes under the hashtag #FreetheLeopards.

 

But Mr. Scholz had stuck to a policy of waiting to act until Germany’s partners did — in particular, Washington. That stance stems in part from Germany’s deeply ingrained post-World War II reluctance to be seen as taking a forward stance on military matters. German society has embraced a pacifist foreign policy for decades, and recent surveys show that around half of Germans are wary of sending tanks to Ukraine.

 

But some politicians from within Mr. Scholz’s three-party coalition have argued that Germany should take the lead in creating a consortium in which the transfer of Leopards to Ukraine would be shared across Europe, easing the burden on individual countries.

 

Now the question turns to how many tanks are available.

 

This month, Armin Papperger, the head of German weapon maker Rheinmetall, said that his company would need a year to refurbish the 22 used Leopard 2 tanks it has in stock. Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, the builder of the tank, is believed to have some used Leopard 2s in stock, but it is unclear how many, or how long it would take to get them into fighting shape.

 

Germany could also send more tanks to Ukraine if the Czech Republic and Slovakia, which gave their Soviet-model tanks to Kyiv in exchange for promises to receive Leopard 2s, agreed to have their own deliveries delayed in favor of Ukraine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


K8Toledo
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  #3027199 26-Jan-2023 04:09
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Also in today's NYT:

 

U.S. Plans to Send Abrams Tanks to Ukraine, Officials Say

 

 

WASHINGTON — Reversing its longstanding resistance, the Biden administration plans to send M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, U.S. officials said on Tuesday, in what would be a major step in arming Kyiv in its efforts to seize back its territory from Russia.

 

The White House is expected to announce a decision as early as Wednesday, said the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the discussions. Two officials said the number of Abrams tanks could be about 30.

 

Over the past month, Pentagon officials had expressed misgivings about sending the Abrams, citing concerns about how Ukraine would maintain the advanced tanks, which require extensive training and servicing. And officials said it could take years for them to actually reach any Ukrainian battlefields.

 

But Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III has now come around to the view that committing to sending American tanks is necessary to spur Germany to follow with its coveted Leopard 2 tanks. Officials at the State Department and the White House argued that giving Germany the political cover it sought to send its own tanks outweighed the Defense Department’s reluctance, the officials said.

 

The movement toward sending the Abrams tanks, first reported by The Wall Street Journal, follows a testy confrontation last week during a NATO defense chiefs meeting over the refusal by Germany’s chancellor, Olaf Scholz, to send the Leopards, which many military experts believe could be a critical weapon in Ukrainian hands.

 

German officials privately insisted that they would send the tanks, among the most advanced in the world, only if the United States agreed to send its own M1 Abrams tanks.

 

Anticipation for a German announcement was high, as various German news outlets reported on Tuesday that Mr. Scholz had decided to send the tanks. Much of the attention focused on an expected address by the chancellor to Parliament on Wednesday.

 

Many European countries use German-built Leopards, which number about 2,000 across the continent, and Ukraine has pleaded for tanks in recent weeks, describing them as necessary to counter Russia’s advantages in arms and men. Western tanks are the latest barrier to fall as Ukraine’s allies supply it with weapons systems they had previously resisted sending; earlier this month, while debates over the Leopard and the Abrams wore on, Britain said it would give some of its Challenger 2 tanks.

 

On Tuesday, Poland’s defense minister said his country had formally requested Germany’s permission to send Ukraine Leopard tanks from its own stocks, and other countries have indicated they would do the same if Germany agreed.

 

In Kyiv, Finland’s president, Sauli Niinisto, told reporters at a news conference that he had discussed the supply of Western tanks to Ukraine with President Volodymyr Zelensky.

 

It was not immediately clear what prompted the Biden administration’s shift. As recently as Monday, a Pentagon official told reporters that the Abrams tanks would be difficult for Ukrainian forces to maintain, in part because they run on jet fuel.

 

But the decision to send a relatively small number of tanks, and the expected delay in delivery, could outweigh concerns about escalating the war while providing political benefits for the administration.

 

Defense officials have repeatedly used the fuel issue to explain in part why the administration was not sending the Abrams tanks to Kyiv. But while it is true that the tanks have gas turbine engines that burn jet fuel, it is not the whole story, tank experts say. Abrams tanks, they say, can run on any type of fuel, including ordinary gasoline and diesel.

 

The Pentagon press secretary, Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder, would not confirm news reports on Tuesday that the administration was on the verge of providing Ukraine with the M1 Abrams tanks. “When and if we have something to announce, we will,” he said.

 

He called the Abrams tank “a very capable battlefield platform.”

 

“It’s also very complex capability,” General Ryder said. “And so, like anything that we’re providing to Ukraine, we want to ensure that they have the ability to maintain it, sustain it, to train on it.”

 

He did not refer to the issue of fuel.

 

The administration had initially hoped that the British offer of Challenger tanks would be enough to get the Germans to agree to send their tanks, but Mr. Scholz, U.S. officials said, insisted on the Abrams.

 

The officials said that the Abrams tanks would be paid for through the Ukraine security assistance package, which provides funding for weapons to Ukraine.

 

A second defense official said the lengthy delay in delivery would allow time for Ukrainian troops to be trained on America’s most advanced tank.

 

Robert B. Abrams, a former U.S. Army armor officer and four-star general who retired in 2021, said the effort would be “herculean” but not impossible.

 

“The time it would take to get there — to be able to build up the supply stockage, to deliver the vehicles, to train the crews, to train the mechanics, to gather everything you’d need — how long would that take?” General Abrams, who has extensive experience in the M1 tank, which was named for his father, Gen. Creighton Abrams, said in an interview. “I don’t know, but it ain’t like 30 days, I can tell you that.”

 

After a series of Ukrainian successes on the battlefield last fall, the war has shifted to a grueling fight of attrition. The most intense fighting is concentrated in eastern Ukraine, where Russia and Ukraine have taken heavy casualties around the city of Bakhmut, as both sides prepare for expected spring offensives.

 

Ukrainian officials say they need tanks to break through newly constructed Russian defenses and retake more territory seized by Moscow early in the war, and to defend against an expected Russian offensive in the spring. The United States has started training hundreds of Ukrainian troops on combined arms tactics, for tight coordination among infantry, artillery, armored vehicles and, when possible, air support.

 

Germany’s new defense minister, Boris Pistorius, said last week that his country would also begin to train Ukrainians to use Leopard tanks, despite the lack of agreement at the time on whether to send them.

 

“It’s to prepare for a day that will possibly come, at which point we would be able to act immediately and deliver the support within a very short period of time,” he told reporters.

 

Ukraine’s allies have provided increasingly sophisticated arms to help Kyiv defend against Russia’s invasion, but they have been reluctant to send heavy offensive weapons for fear of provoking Moscow.

 

Since Russia’s full-scale invasion began 11 months ago, they have tried to carefully calibrate their support, which has slowly grown to include howitzers, HIMARS rocket artillery systems, Patriot air defenses and, most recently, armored fighting vehicles, including the Stryker, used by the U.S. military.

 

Ukraine has been begging for heavily armored Western tanks for months, with officials maintaining that the country’s current inventory of Soviet-style tanks is not enough to expel Russian forces. When Britain announced last week that it was sending 14 tanks, Ukrainian officials thanked the British government, but said in a statement that the Challengers were “not sufficient to achieve operational goals.”

 

The officials said that the Abrams tanks would be paid for through the Ukraine security assistance package, which provides funding for weapons to Ukraine.

 

A second defense official said the lengthy delay in delivery would allow time for Ukrainian troops to be trained on America’s most advanced tank.

 

Robert B. Abrams, a former U.S. Army armor officer and four-star general who retired in 2021, said the effort would be “herculean” but not impossible.

 

“The time it would take to get there — to be able to build up the supply stockage, to deliver the vehicles, to train the crews, to train the mechanics, to gather everything you’d need — how long would that take?” General Abrams, who has extensive experience in the M1 tank, which was named for his father, Gen. Creighton Abrams, said in an interview. “I don’t know, but it ain’t like 30 days, I can tell you that.”

 

After a series of Ukrainian successes on the battlefield last fall, the war has shifted to a grueling fight of attrition. The most intense fighting is concentrated in eastern Ukraine, where Russia and Ukraine have taken heavy casualties around the city of Bakhmut, as both sides prepare for expected spring offensives.

 

Ukrainian officials say they need tanks to break through newly constructed Russian defenses and retake more territory seized by Moscow early in the war, and to defend against an expected Russian offensive in the spring. The United States has started training hundreds of Ukrainian troops on combined arms tactics, for tight coordination among infantry, artillery, armored vehicles and, when possible, air support.

 

Germany’s new defense minister, Boris Pistorius, said last week that his country would also begin to train Ukrainians to use Leopard tanks, despite the lack of agreement at the time on whether to send them.

 

“It’s to prepare for a day that will possibly come, at which point we would be able to act immediately and deliver the support within a very short period of time,” he told reporters.

 

Ukraine’s allies have provided increasingly sophisticated arms to help Kyiv defend against Russia’s invasion, but they have been reluctant to send heavy offensive weapons for fear of provoking Moscow.

 

Since Russia’s full-scale invasion began 11 months ago, they have tried to carefully calibrate their support, which has slowly grown to include howitzers, HIMARS rocket artillery systems, Patriot air defenses and, most recently, armored fighting vehicles, including the Stryker, used by the U.S. military.

 

Ukraine has been begging for heavily armored Western tanks for months, with officials maintaining that the country’s current inventory of Soviet-style tanks is not enough to expel Russian forces. When Britain announced last week that it was sending 14 tanks, Ukrainian officials thanked the British government, but said in a statement that the Challengers were “not sufficient to achieve operational goals.”


Gurezaemon

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  #3027323 26-Jan-2023 10:05
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I seems that the US should just go ahead and send a dozen Abrams over just in order to let the Leopards get moving.

 

By the time the Abrams, which IIRC is not used anywhere in Europe gets on the ground and gets its supply/logistics chain and training sorted (without which it can't operate), we'll be a minimum of one, and probably closer to three years down the line, and the whole conflict will be in a different situation for better or for worse.





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  #3027325 26-Jan-2023 10:10
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Gurezaemon:

 

I seems that the US should just go ahead and send a dozen Abrams over just in order to let the Leopards get moving.

 

 

 

 

Even without the supply chain stuff it's not quite that simple. US Abrams tanks use armour made from depleted Uranium and/or top secret ceramic compounds. They don't export that armour even to very close allies. Anything they send to Ukraine - with a near certainty that some examples are going to be destroyed or even captured - need to be first downgraded to steel or other non-sensitive types of armour. That's not exactly a 5-minute job.





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neb

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  #3027449 26-Jan-2023 12:24
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SaltyNZ:

Even without the supply chain stuff it's not quite that simple. US Abrams tanks use armour made from depleted Uranium and/or top secret ceramic compounds. They don't export that armour even to very close allies. Anything they send to Ukraine - with a near certainty that some examples are going to be destroyed or even captured - need to be first downgraded to steel or other non-sensitive types of armour. That's not exactly a 5-minute job.

 

 

They sell an export version with the (appropriately-named and mis-spelled) Export Armor Package to all sorts of questionable places, so there's no problem there. I think the real issue will be that the EAP version, which also has downgraded everything else, in the hands of troops who have been rushed into combat with it, may perform poorly and make them look bad. For example a number of Saudi ones were damaged or destroyed in Yemen up against random militias, so they may not fare too well against regular Sovi...Russian troops and equipment.

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