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Daynger
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  #2879491 5-Mar-2022 18:40
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Sidestep:

 

There's no doubt Ukraine's army is outnumbered and outgunned - particularly with heavy weapons - by Russia's. 

 

But Ukraine's also been at war for eight years. They have tens of thousands of people with good training and military experience.
The United States has given them $3 billion in military aid since 2015 - and the type of equipment they're sending to Ukraine is already used there, is easy to learn, and easy to teach.

 

Remember the success - in the 1980's - of Afghan mujahideen against Soviet aircraft with CIA provided, 'Stinger' shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles.
The Americans definitely didn't forget. The US, and other countries including Lithuania, Netherlands and Germany have supplied thousands of modernised Stingers to Ukraine.

 

And - the US has provided hundreds of man-portable, shoulder-carried, fire-and-forget Javelin anti-tank launchers and nearly a thousand (@ $100K each) missiles. 
They're a heavier, longer distance missile system than stingers, use a modern automatic infrared guidance system and are "fire and forget".

 

An inexperienced operator can use one after ~12 hours training.

 

There was a push by the US after Russia’s military buildup on the border last year to increase Javelin training and deployment, and planeloads of them were still being unloaded in February.

Enough of them have been delivered now that the Ukranians are firing them at nearly everything - helicopters, trucks, even groups of Russian soldiers. 

And the British have supplied thousands of close-range Main Battle Tank and Light Anti-tank Weapons (NLAWs) which Ukranian Volunteer militias have in positions they've dug surrounding the main roads.

 

Add to that good real-time intel and comms from the US, and you can see why the Russians are losing so much stuff.
There's a good verified list of it here.

 

 

 

 

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.

 

The two are not interchangeable in role.


tdgeek
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  #2879500 5-Mar-2022 19:02
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From Stuff

 

* Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a bill introducing a prison sentence of up to 15 years for spreading information that goes against the Russian government’s position on the war in Ukraine.

 

So 15 years for facts, and 0 years for fake news


tdgeek
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  #2879501 5-Mar-2022 19:03
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When does this translate to terrorism?


tdgeek
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  #2879502 5-Mar-2022 19:06
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Daynger:

 

 

 

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.

 

The two are not interchangeable in role.

 

 

Correct, both both are effective. Unless Russia deploys higher altitude bombing. Which is kill everyone and destroy all buildings. Hardly a "special military operation not targeting civilians"


Ge0rge
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  #2879503 5-Mar-2022 19:36
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Daynger:

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.


The two are not interchangeable in role.



Not quite correct - javelin are also incredibly effective against helicopters.

freitasm
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  #2879508 5-Mar-2022 20:43
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elpenguino:
freitasm: You'd never invade Russia in winter. Lucky it is just coming to summer.


On one hand , winter is a good time to invade Russia, makes it possible to cross frozen rivers and the ground is solid so your tanks won't sink in the mud like that tank photographed in Ukraine recently.

But why would you invade Russia? Then you'd be a bad guy.


Napoleon and Hitler would disagree. A winter campaign in Russia is hell.

NATO should act now, during spring and summer.




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neb

neb
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  #2879519 5-Mar-2022 22:46
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Daynger:

Going on the performance of the Russian troops invading Ukraine, NATO forces would decimate the Russians.

 

 

The Russian troops went into the Ukraine to liberate their brothers from fascist oppressors, or as a training exercise, or whatever. Facing their long-time enemy would produce a very different outcome.

neb

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  #2879520 5-Mar-2022 22:47
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Daynger:

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.

 

The two are not interchangeable in role.

 

 

Interchanging AA and anti-tank weapons worked fine for the Wehrmacht...

rugrat
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  #2879522 5-Mar-2022 22:56
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freitasm: 

Napoleon and Hitler would disagree. A winter campaign in Russia is hell.

NATO should act now, during spring and summer.

 

NATO doesn’t want to risk the conflict getting bigger then Ukraine. Therefore advantage to Russia, in that they can solidify their position in Ukraine and then they have a lot more countries in range if they wish to carry on.

 

I did see mention that NATO, USA possibly have people in Ukraine doing covert ops. Also a French aircraft carrier is repositioning, have an eye on NATO border, surveillance, and ready for anything else if necessary.

 

Also some commentators have said that Russia won’t be able to hold territory, I’m not sure about that when they’ll cut power, water and food supplies off to cities. And there was talk of public executions if people refuse to fight on Russian side.

 

I’m just hoping NATO knows what doing, but seem to be risk adverse to me.

 

 


K8Toledo
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  #2879541 6-Mar-2022 01:12
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tdgeek:

 

When does International Law stop NATO jumping in? On one hand thats WW3, on the other its invade with impunity on the free world. The middle ground would be throwing in a LOT of weaponry to the Ukraininans. Thats happening a lot for small weaponry and ammunition, but isnt giving a lot of larger weaponry tantamount to being a proxy war between Russia and Ukraine/NATO?  I guess the ideal scenario is Ukraine stalling them as much as possible, to get Russian morale lower as the actual war isnt known to many Russian military (when they went) and citizens. I see Russia is about to block Facebook. Ironically for how many others view Facebook, for Russian Government its too much factual news.

 

Watched a reporter in Moscow asking citizens. Half of them said there is no war, and what there is, is Ukraine's fault. The others (generally younger) see the real news in social media and are horrified.

 

 

Ukraine isn't a member, so (in theory) NATO doesn't come into it. And since NATO is a defensive alliance Article 5 needs to be invoked before military invention.

 

An attack on one member, is an attack on all.

 

 

 

NATO engaging Russian forces could be regarded as an act of war. As it stands the only member with the military capabilty to take on Russia is the USA. 

 

By the time sufficient American ground forces and airpower arrived in Ukraine, Russian forces would occupy Belarus the Baltics and possibly half of Europe

 

 

 

This is precisly why Germany is now rearming.

 

Germany is the one European nation with a military that could go head to head with Russia, their pacifist foreign policy until now has been an achilles heel of NATO.

 

 

 

Also a war with Russia would be extremely costly in terms of lives.

 

Earlier I mentioned Operation Barbarossa (invasion of USSR)- Barbarossa was just the initial invasion, the entire Eastern Front war lasted 4 years resulting in enormous casulties.  

 

Numbers below don't include civilians.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Daynger
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  #2879542 6-Mar-2022 01:15
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neb:
Daynger:

 

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.

 

The two are not interchangeable in role.

 

Interchanging AA and anti-tank weapons worked fine for the Wehrmacht...

 

 

 

The 88 was a bit different to a missile system, alot more dumb, but very effective against anything really.


Daynger
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  #2879543 6-Mar-2022 01:25
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Ge0rge:
Daynger:

 

Javelin are anti tank weapons, stingers are anti air weapons.

 

 

 

The two are not interchangeable in role.

 



Not quite correct - javelin are also incredibly effective against helicopters.

 

 

 

Are you sure you are not mixing up the old British Javelin (SAM) and the US Javelin (SSM)?

 

The anti tank FMG148 Javelin is a bit slow and short range for aircraft, a hovering helicopter might be a viable target, but not anything moving at speed.


neb

neb
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  #2879546 6-Mar-2022 02:10
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Daynger:

Not quite correct - javelin are also incredibly effective against helicopters.

 

Are you sure you are not mixing up the old British Javelin (SAM) and the US Javelin (SSM)?

 

 

He meant drones, not helicopters:

 

 


Ge0rge
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  #2879600 6-Mar-2022 08:29
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neb:
Daynger:

Are you sure you are not mixing up the old British Javelin (SAM) and the US Javelin (SSM)?



He meant drones, not helicopters:



Thanks, but I did mean helicopters and yes, i did mean the US Javelin. Helicopters are mentioned in descriptions of the weapon, but more importantly they are also a part of the simulation package. This contains a series of assessments involving engagements that a gunner must pass before being deemed competent to use the live weapon. There are at least two assessments that involve engaging helicopters.

Remember, the Javelin targeting system prefers a moving target over a static one - helicopters fit this bill nicely.

tdgeek
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  #2879601 6-Mar-2022 08:32
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K8Toledo:

 

NATO engaging Russian forces could be regarded as an act of war.

 

 

Russia engaging Ukraine is an act of war. Ukraine is a seperate, independent nation. While they are not a NATO member, is there a moral right to defend an innocent country? Defend Ukraine not attack Russia on Russian soil. While no one wants a world war or a Russia vs NATO/US war, where does it stop? Grozhny, Crimea, Donbass, the list will keep being added to, with impunity. What happens if USA decided to shore up its military position by attacking Ukraine, Donbass, Crimea, Sweden, Thailand, and so on? Same thing. The west is encouraging rogue nations to expand.  The US has many defence forces in non US countries. It's for defence. Russia is attacking, it has destroying lived and buildings as well as military, it is now, it will continue to do so, unless someone tales a stand. If Ukraine said, yeah ok, we dont mind Russia governing us, then fine, but they didnt, so they are getting killed, right now there is a destroy everything until submission going on. If China soon attacked to take over Taiwan, the West cannot do anything at all, because allowing Russia to invade with impunity, an independent and sovereign nation is a precedent that the West is allowing to happen. 


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