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MikeB4
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  #2860774 2-Feb-2022 16:38
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frankv:

 

It's not new to the twentieth century... what I described is how the powerful (kings and dukes and chieftains way back, nowadays politicians) have operated for millennia. The fact that they keep doing it suggests that either you're right and they haven't learned anything, or you're wrong and they have learned that threatening warfare, and often actual warfare, does in fact work. I favour the latter position. Do we not celebrate the great military victories that our side has won? That suggests that we believe that the outcome is considered well worth the cost.

 

NB that talking with/to the other person is in fact usual, so you can get as much from them as possible without having to use up your human and economic resources. It's only when they refuse to hand over any more that you resort to taking it by force (or postpone). The Crimea annexation, for example, followed a decade or more of Russian attempts to regain it from Ukraine by diplomacy and subversion. We saw the same thing in New Zealand, California, Texas, the Falklands, and see it in the South China Sea. One wonders what the outcome of Alaska would have been if the Russians had refused to sell.

 

 

 

 

Along the lines of the adage wrongfully attributed to Albert Einstein "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" Just because we have done stupid things for hundreds/thousands of years does not make it less insane.

 

Should we in the twenty first century try giving John Lennon's wise words a try "All we are saying is give peace a chance" 

 

I don't celebrate great military victories I remember the sacrifice and the tragic loss of lives as a result of the insanity of leaders. My family does not go to ANZAC services to praise victories we go so that we will remember those who served and those that never grew old.


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  #2860786 2-Feb-2022 17:01
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MikeB4:

 

If Russia joined Nato how would the US justify the Trillions spent on defence? 

 

 

China


MikeB4
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  #2860790 2-Feb-2022 17:15
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frankv:

 

MikeB4:

 

If Russia joined Nato how would the US justify the Trillions spent on defence? 

 

 

China

 

 

topic for a different thread but China does not pose a military threat to the US. China is a massive economic threat to the US and why the US is so butt hurt over China.


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  #2860792 2-Feb-2022 17:18
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MikeB4:

 

You would think the lessons of the twentieth century would still be clear in the minds of the world so called leaders and that in the twenty first century we would be over this BS.

 

 

 

 

Clearly we are living the twentieth century again.

 

We got our global pandemic but WW1 is running a bit late.


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  #2860798 2-Feb-2022 17:34
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shk292
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  #2860799 2-Feb-2022 17:36
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It's all very well saying that NATO / UK / US shouldn't get involved but what is the alternative?  If the world lets leaders like Putin or Galtieri ignore the rule of law and annex other nations' sovereign territory by military force, what message does this send?  It's like saying "theft is illegal, but if you hold someone up with a gun and take their stuff we're not going to do anything about it".


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  #2860803 2-Feb-2022 17:50
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shk292:

It's all very well saying that NATO / UK / US shouldn't get involved but what is the alternative?  If the world lets leaders like Putin or Galtieri ignore the rule of law and annex other nations' sovereign territory by military force, what message does this send?  It's like saying "theft is illegal, but if you hold someone up with a gun and take their stuff we're not going to do anything about it".



Unless of course it’s being done by the West

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  #2860839 2-Feb-2022 20:47
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1101:

Kookoo:

 

Remind us when US armed forces attacked Cuba in the wake of the Cuban missile crisis .

 

Bay of Pigs Invasion. US backed .
It failed .
https://www.britannica.com/event/Bay-of-Pigs-invasion

 

Anyway, why join NATO .
NATO EU countries have shown how unwilling they are to act militarily .

 

The US have a history of crushing small nations that crossed it or went to Communism or nationalized their assets .
Russia are more or less doing the same .

 

 

 

 

False equivalences again.

 

First, Pig Bay invasion happened BEFORE the Cuban missile crisis, not after. I asked for an example where Russia deployed weapons to a nation and the US attacked that nation in response.

 

That aside, weapon deployment won't work as a casus belli here because no western nation actually deployed any weapons to Ukraine that could threaten Russia before the build up of Russian military on its borders.

 

Second, in regard to "crushing small nations" - they crush the Communist regimes of those nations. And as someone who's personally familiar with a Communist regime, both its strengths and its weaknesses - good riddance.

 

Also, why is this even relevant to this debate. Even if the US was in the habit of removing communist regimes of small nations, how is this relevant to the Ukraine situation?

 

- The US isn't NATO

 

- Russia isn't a small nation

 

- Putin's regime isn't communist, if anything - it's a semi-feudal capitalist rule




Hello, Ground!

shk292
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  #2860859 2-Feb-2022 21:10
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MikeB4:

Unless of course it’s being done by the West

 

I wouldn't make that distinction; Argentina is "the West" and I disagree with their actions in 1982.  But YMMV


Kookoo
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  #2872044 21-Feb-2022 14:25
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I'm starting to get the weird feeling that Zelenskyy has sold out to Putin - a comfortable life as an entertainer or political commentator in Russia, in return for the surrender of Ukraine. I can't find any other explanation for what he's been doing over the last month - everything he did played into Putin's hands. Refusing to ask for more NATO help, claiming that Russia will not attack, trying to portray Russia as a peaceful neighbour despite a decade of evidence to the contrary, leaking conversations with Western leaders trying to convince him that the invasion is real... And now as Russian forces are getting on the move, blaming NATO for not doing more to help Ukraine.

 

To be fair, I can't blame Zelenskyy for selling out considering the examples of those who stood up to Putin - Nemtsov, Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Berezovsky and many others.

 

 





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MikeB4
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  #2872068 21-Feb-2022 14:45
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Kookoo:

I'm starting to get the weird feeling that Zelenskyy has sold out to Putin - a comfortable life as an entertainer or political commentator in Russia, in return for the surrender of Ukraine. I can't find any other explanation for what he's been doing over the last month - everything he did played into Putin's hands. Refusing to ask for more NATO help, claiming that Russia will not attack, trying to portray Russia as a peaceful neighbour despite a decade of evidence to the contrary, leaking conversations with Western leaders trying to convince him that the invasion is real... And now as Russian forces are getting on the move, blaming NATO for not doing more to help Ukraine.


To be fair, I can't blame Zelenskyy for selling out considering the examples of those who stood up to Putin - Nemtsov, Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Berezovsky and many others.


 



The would not be in this position if the US and NATO had honoured their agreements.

gzt

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  #2872072 21-Feb-2022 14:50
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Which were what exactly?

gzt

gzt
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  #2872077 21-Feb-2022 14:57
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Kookoo: I can't find any other explanation for what he's been doing over the last month -
Rock and a hard place. Zelenskyy is trying to keep the economy healthy by maintaining confidence. As for requesting help from NATO it's not that easy or simple. It's a very difficult situation.

MikeB4
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  #2872083 21-Feb-2022 15:07
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gzt: Which were what exactly?

 

As part of the agreements made at the cessation of the cold war as NATO would not spread its influence and membership to the Russian borders. NATO conveniently forgets that. 


MikeB4
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  #2872085 21-Feb-2022 15:10
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Kookoo:

 

I'm starting to get the weird feeling that Zelenskyy has sold out to Putin - a comfortable life as an entertainer or political commentator in Russia, in return for the surrender of Ukraine. I can't find any other explanation for what he's been doing over the last month - everything he did played into Putin's hands. Refusing to ask for more NATO help, claiming that Russia will not attack, trying to portray Russia as a peaceful neighbour despite a decade of evidence to the contrary, leaking conversations with Western leaders trying to convince him that the invasion is real... And now as Russian forces are getting on the move, blaming NATO for not doing more to help Ukraine.

 

To be fair, I can't blame Zelenskyy for selling out considering the examples of those who stood up to Putin - Nemtsov, Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Berezovsky and many others.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say "sold out" more like prudently trying to protect his nation from certain destruction as a pawn in infantile game between the West and Russia.


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