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16172 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1863


  Reply # 742317 9-Jan-2013 15:20 Send private message

if you do rotate i'd say you need to redo alignment and rebalance to get the most benefit ... otherwise there is a chance you could end up a little worse

110 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 20


  Reply # 742343 9-Jan-2013 15:53 Send private message

As soon as I saw this post I thought you meant rotation as in camber:

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1207 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 61


  Reply # 742356 9-Jan-2013 16:04 Send private message

I've got semi directionals i.e. can be used on either side of the car.

Im starting to notice slight wear and was thinking about rotation however my best answer is to simply get them re-balanced and get a wheel alignment as I suspect this has been thrown out of whack by these dodgy outback city roads we have here in Christchurch at the moment.

984 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 25

  Reply # 742389 9-Jan-2013 17:07 Send private message

I do. My car is lowered and chews tyres a bit, esp front ones. I just get it done when I take it for a service

4296 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 801


  Reply # 742444 9-Jan-2013 19:05 Send private message

TheUngeek: I've seen that clip. Please explain to me how it has any resemblance to nz conditions.
As I mentioned before America is quite different.

Unfortunately your advice that the new tyre should be in front could cost you $8.5 million

And sir, that is a FACT.

924 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 35
Inactive user

  Reply # 742446 9-Jan-2013 19:12 Send private message

Fact, that's an American freeway. Relavance to nz conditionss = 0
We do not drive on wide flat concrete roads

4296 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 801


  Reply # 742449 9-Jan-2013 19:17 Send private message

TheUngeek: Fact, that's an American freeway. Relavance to nz conditionss = 0
We do not drive on wide flat concrete roads

I guess you have some 'unknown' knowledge that neither AA New Zealand nor NZTA knew..

1. AA NZ advice

2. NZTA advice

924 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 35
Inactive user

  Reply # 742452 9-Jan-2013 19:24 Send private message

Do you think either of those places did a proper test and research? Or just rehashed American stuff...
Like I said, until there is a proper test done comparable to nz conditions I will not change my mind.
Watch those American ones. You can clearly see road surfaces and conditions are miles away from what we have here.
Begining to feel like a broken record. I do wish people would read and process and think before random googling

2964 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 742486 9-Jan-2013 20:05 Send private message

dickytim: Front or rear to have the best tyres, I had always been told put the new tyres on the front as that is where the steering happens. I guess there could be arguments for both schools of thought.

In the old days this used to be quite a topical point of discussion. With any modern front wheel drive car you have to be absolutely crazy to do this - the deepest tread should always be on the rear to prevent hydroplaning and I'd be surprised if you found a single tyre retailer these days that would ever allow fitting of new tyres to the front of a modern front wheel drive car.

In wet conditions the tyres with the least tread will aquaplane first. If the tyres at the front have the least tread your car will understeer, If the tyres at the back have the least tread your car will oversteer. Recovering from oversteering caused by aquaplaning caused by is vastly more difficult than understeering caused by the front wheels aquaplaning. If you've ever driven a skid pan in the wet you would appreciate this even more!

You should talk to my Ford dealership.  They put my new tyres on the back of my car because they didn't have time to put them on the front before xmas. 

They want me to come back in to swap the new tyres to the front. 

Exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

509 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 155
Inactive user

  Reply # 742523 9-Jan-2013 20:55 Send private message

a few things to consider
1/ True aquaplaning is fairly uncommon, this lets the tyre skim across the road surface, with minimal drag - it lifts the tyre footprint off the road surface and usually increases the rotation speed of the wheel, if it's a driven wheel.
4WD wont help you unless you have a locked or tight Limited slip diff.

2/ Most aquaplaning that you feel when going through puddles at 100km/h is simply a sudden build up of water in front of the face of the tyre, The tyre footprint can't move all of the water but it's still in contact with the road,  a bank of water creates a braking effect and reduces traction as well as pull the car slightly to one side, usually puddles are on the left. During a brief aquaplane a driver can ( if taken by surprise) over compensate with steering or throttle, which wont help. 

Slight Aquaplaning causes drag, the deeper the water the more the drag. The deeper the tread, the more water gets cleared. Wide linear grooves are great for this, tyres with more lateral or diagonal grooves are less effective.
Usually just one side of a car will aquaplane and the water will form in puddles as previously suggested.
Best action is not to create any weight change in the car. Don't turn, brake or decelerate suddenly, just hold on.

For large areas of water ( say more than 1.5m long) simply because the effect lasts longer, your car will probably "float" downhill with the camber of the road.

All cars are going to be easier to control if the deepest grooves are on the front, the front is almost always the heaviest end of the car and what ever happens to the rear, you can sort it out with the front. If you apply the brakes while aquaplaning the ABS (assuming you have it) will activate leaving you in essence with no brakes until that wheel starts to turn again.

Unless you are talking about very specific circumstances ,such as rallying front driven cars with LSD's on gravel - Always have the best grip on the front. Of course in the dry, the tyres with the least tread will have the best grip, deeper/wider treads reduce surface contact. so if anything you should rotate the tyres to suit the weather.

As for the recommendations of the LTSA and others , back in the days of rear drive the thinking was to have the driven wheels with the most grip. In principal I agree but think physics rather than blanket rules. The current road code also suggests you decelerate whilst oversteering  - Frankly, I wouldn't be doing that !

I spent quite a few years teaching this stuff and competed in many wet events. The big thing here is to look for the water on the road surface and keep well back from the person in front. 

1255 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 239

  Reply # 742557 9-Jan-2013 21:48 Send private message

What turnin writes above is the best advice I've ever read on this topic.

1207 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 61


  Reply # 742625 10-Jan-2013 09:01 Send private message

So why dont we all just invest in our saftey and always purchase good tyres (not the cheaper end and/or the cheap imported crap made for roads which dont resemble NZ conditons) and then we only have to worry about the skill of the driver if they so happen to get themselfs into a situation they cant get out of because they didnt bother to lean how to correct/steer themselfs out of trouble!

372 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 38

  Reply # 743229 11-Jan-2013 11:34 Send private message

My 2 cents, coming from a FF car, directional tyres.

My last set of (toyo t1-r treadwear 300?) lasted me more than 60k and still legal. Without rotation, the front would have given up after 20k~40k or so depends on driving styles.

Some do it every 5k or 10k driven, but for me once a year is good enough. If you have service done they usually rotate it for free.

With the set of tyres evenly wear out, you can get full set of new tyres for replacement, and not bothered with the "new tyres on front or rear" debate.

Regular wheel alignment is also important, should be done at least once every 1 or 2 years depends on distance driven, and following any incidents/modifications that could affect the suspension geometry.

Proper rotation and alignment could extend the lifespan of the tyres significantly.

P.s. would help to balance tyres while doing alignment, or after you hit a pothole...

1375 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 292

  Reply # 743244 11-Jan-2013 12:41 Send private message

When my front tyres start to squeal while cornering that has always been a good indicator that I need a wheel alignment.

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924 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 35
Inactive user

  Reply # 743245 11-Jan-2013 12:42 Send private message

Hammerer: When my front tyres start to squeal while cornering that has always been a good indicator that I need a wheel alignment.

Not sure if I should laugh or cringe lol

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