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#129542 19-Sep-2013 02:24
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Well as the title suggests, I'm trying to find out how to pay a fine to Parking Enforcement Services New Zealand. I got a ticket for overstaying the time while at St Lukes mall in Auckland. I would have been perfectly okay with paying it, except I got to the car as the attendant was walking to it, he pushed a few more buttons after I got his attention, printed and handed me the ticket. I said to him that I just got here and he knew it was my car, he basically said to deal with it and walked off.

So since he was so rude to do that, why not me be somewhat rude back. I have a bunch of 10c pieces lying around and I was going to pay in coins (you can only pay up to $5 with coins smaller than $1 under NZ law, and up to $100 if you use $1 and $2 pieces). 

I can't find anything on their site though about paying in cash, only for paying if you have your car clamped which i did not. 

Has anyone done this before?  i know its a long shot but worth a try, I'm on mid-semester break as of Friday so I need something to do haha. 

-Sam




Bachelor of Computing Systems (2015)

 

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Late 2013 MacBook Pro with Retina Display (4GB/2.4GHz i5/128GB SSD) - HP DV6 (8GB/2.8GHz i7/120GB SSD + 750GB HDD)
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Sam, Auckland 


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  #898228 19-Sep-2013 08:50
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Does it actually say "fine" on the ticket? Only the council and government agencies can issue fines. I guess you're probably aware of all the existing threads on disputing the amount charged for overstaying in a carparking building, usually in excess of the 'damages' caused by you, and also include an illegal 'administration' fee.

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  #898382 19-Sep-2013 12:08
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I would have jumped in the car and drove off before he could hand it to me/put it on the windshield.

 
 
 
 


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  #898396 19-Sep-2013 12:10
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St Lukes parking building?

How long where you there? Most of the parks are like 240 minutes. I've parked there for much longer than that without a problem. I never thought they were in the habbit of enforcing the time limit. It seems pretty silly to.

I'd be interested to know what the "ticket" looks like too.

:)





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  #898439 19-Sep-2013 13:27
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My wife got a ticket there.  We refuse to go that mall again.  It was on a weekday and there was plenty of other parking so i can't see what the problem is apart from making money.  Xmas time, fair enough.

Plenty of other malls around auckland with the same shops.

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  #898475 19-Sep-2013 14:04
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You could probably take them to the disputes tribunal using past rulings as evidence that the damages PES are seeking aren't justifiable

Also, paying the amount in small coins/notes/cheque etc makes no difference to them as they will likely have a counting machines so no point wasting your time trying that tactic.

My partner used to work for one of these places in Wellington and it was amusing the lengths some people go to, the best one was someone that glued a cheque to brick and dumped it on the counter then walked off

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  #898534 19-Sep-2013 15:20
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Private companies cannot fine you, they are only allowed to demand liquidated damages (That is the actual financial loss they suffered directly from your actions).

The demands made by PESNZ and others issuers have been challenged a few times (most successfully), but the generally accepted position is that the amount they are asking for covers the lost revenue from your unpaid parking as well as their reasonable costs for collection. They would argue that for simplicity they average the cost across all infringers and that determining individual costs would drive recoverable admin costs up anyway. The reality is that the cost of their demand will more than cover those 'damages', but there is no easy way to prove that as they are a private company.

But in order to make such a demand, they have to do what is reasonable to minimise their loss. In your case, as you were present as the notice was being issued, the reasonable thing to do would to simply collect the unpaid parking immediately at that point.

Refusing to do so could be argued as PESNZ failing to be reasonable. The only reason not to collect the money from you at that point is to make more money out of you via a demand for liquidated damages.

At the end of the day, it's up to you if you have the time and energy to fight it.




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  #898539 19-Sep-2013 15:23
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Fabian: My wife got a ticket there.  We refuse to go that mall again.  It was on a weekday and there was plenty of other parking so i can't see what the problem is apart from making money.  Xmas time, fair enough.

Plenty of other malls around auckland with the same shops.


On the subject of liquidated damages, I believe there has to have been an actual, real loss. Ie, if the carpark was 50% empty, the actual loss is $0, because even if you didn't park there, you weren't preventing a potential paying customer from parking.

While my understanding is that 'technically' that is the case, it's probably pushing it in terms of being reasonable and so I wouldn't try and use it as a defence.




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  #898553 19-Sep-2013 15:35
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ajobbins: 
On the subject of liquidated damages, I believe there has to have been an actual, real loss. Ie, if the carpark was 50% empty, the actual loss is $0, because even if you didn't park there, you weren't preventing a potential paying customer from parking.

While my understanding is that 'technically' that is the case, it's probably pushing it in terms of being reasonable and so I wouldn't try and use it as a defence.


Assuming it's the Westfield St Lukes mall, they don't charge for parking anyway. So the argued loss would have to be any potential customers who turned away due to being unable to find parking.

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  #898570 19-Sep-2013 15:58
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PaulBags: I would have jumped in the car and drove off before he could hand it to me/put it on the windshield.


I did just that when I got a ticket for being parked 2 hours 10 mins at St Likes. Didn't work, I received the ticket in the mail two weeks later, and on the ticket it said that I had a week to make any excuses, after which no excuses would be considered. The first week was already up before I received the ticket! More trouble that it was worth to follow up, so I just paid it.

The worst one I got however, was getting ticketed in Fort St in the city, when my motorbike was just half a bike with over the line. The bike park was full, and my motorbike almost squeezed in, but really, 40cm over the line!! Revenue collecting in my opinion.

And be warned.... the car park at Greenlane McDonalds / Countdown is now one OR the other. If you park in the main park the go into McDonalds before going to Countdown, expect a ticket! You need to move your car a few meters into the other carpark if you visit both locations on the same trip.
 
Newmarket Warehouse car park is also patrolled - don't go over time there either :(

I don't visit Greenlane Countdown, Newmarket Warehouse or St Lukes if I can help it now!

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  #898636 19-Sep-2013 18:03
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Inphinity: Assuming it's the Westfield St Lukes mall, they don't charge for parking anyway. So the argued loss would have to be any potential customers who turned away due to being unable to find parking.


Doesn't work like that. Unless they can quantify the loss, they can't claim it as liquidated damages. Potential loss of a potential sale doesn't quality. And that's assuming that the demand notice was issues on behalf of the mall. If the car park is run separately, then it's even less relevant.




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Master Geek


  #898809 20-Sep-2013 06:13
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My parter received a $60 "fine" from PES for staying over the printed time on her ticket by an hour, even though the time on the machine at the time of purchase implied she was paying for longer.

This annoyed me as the "fine" was issued to her and all her coffee group friends 5 minutes after the printed expiry. They clearly knew about the issue and used it as a nice little earner.

I wrote to them and after lots of posturing emails from both of us, I offered to pay 2.5x the price of the parking for the extra hour used or about $20 instead of $60. They accepted and discharged the debt.

My original indignant stand and willingness to fight to the end was tempered by the amount of time I was wasting arguing, along with a bay corp debt against our name in the meantime and the likelihood a small claims tribunal would meet somewhere in the middle of $0 and $60, prompted my offer.


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  #899239 20-Sep-2013 21:14
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gazbo: along with a bay corp debt against our name in the meantime


If the claim is in dispute, they are not allowed to lodge it with Baycorp.




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  #899279 20-Sep-2013 23:48
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That was the explicit threat. I know from experience when applying for a mortgage that lodging a debt with Baycorp is far too easy and certain banks will not consider any loans until it is discharged. Shouldn't and couldn't are two very different things.

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  #899283 21-Sep-2013 00:07
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gazbo: That was the explicit threat. I know from experience when applying for a mortgage that lodging a debt with Baycorp is far too easy and certain banks will not consider any loans until it is discharged. Shouldn't and couldn't are two very different things.


If, as the registered owner of a vehicle,PESNZ sends you a demand, just write back and say that they have made a mistake and they should contact the person whom they invited onto their parking lot. Just because you own the car doesn't mean you were the person who entered into the parking contract.

They can't lodge a default against someone when they can't prove you were a party to the contract.




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  #899383 21-Sep-2013 11:50
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You're being very naive. I had a debt lodged against me by another parking crowd at botany town centre for "driving off while clamped for staying over allotted time".

It was 2 years after the supposed event when I was first applying for a mortgage that I even knew the debt existed. I had no knowledge of ever being clamped let alone driving off with one still attached to my wheel. I would think I would have noticed that.

Most of the major banks would not consider a mortgage until the debt was cleared with bay corp. They didn't care I had no idea what it was for and when I did find out was intending to dispute it. I could not apply for a mortgage until it was cleared.

I only found out about the clamping after finding the lodger via Baycorp. I then had to write to the clamping company with a "please explain and remove the lodged debt or I will counter claim with damages". They then wiped the $130 debt based on time passed and no evidence kept from that time to support their claim . I had two credit card applications refused during those two years with no knowledge as to why until then..

So I'll say it again and hopefully you'll understand what I'm telling you this time without having to write a book explaining it -

Yes, they technically should not be able to lodge claims under dispute, however, in reality claims are lodged against people with little or no evidence to support the claim and it is up to the the person claimed against to do the hard work sorting it out.

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