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mdooher

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  #1451615 16-Dec-2015 14:34
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BTR:
JamesL: Aww, poor gun owners. /s




Agree, would rather have no mail order at all and purchasers have to buy in store. Unless you are a hunter, farmer doing pest control or a target shooter you don't have any need for a gun. 




So the farmer in Central Otago who wants a gun should go to the only gun shop around and pay whatever the owner wants to charge?




Matthew


 
 
 

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mdooher

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  #1451621 16-Dec-2015 14:38
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BTR:
mdooher:
Talkiet:
mdooher: [snip]

Why? the licence holder is legally allowed to possess it for a sufficient purpose...like receiving it from the courier. So why should they have an extra condition imposed? particularly one that doesn't make it any more likely that the gun will not be stolen.


Part of obtaining a firearms license is a site visit to ensure that secure storage at the address of the holder is suitable. I would guess that most work addresses have not been inspected in this fashion.

http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/firearms/standard-new-zealand-firearms-licence

"Firearms storage You will need to show that firearms will be stored in the manner set out in the Arms Regulations - if you can't, you may not get a licence or your current one will be revoked. All licence holders must install security at their home, even if they don't actually have any firearms. Security requirements are particularly strict for dealers and for licence holders who possess pistols, restricted weapons or MSSAs.

 

  • You must never put a firearm where a child could reach it.
  • You must store firearms and ammunition separately or disable the firearms, or both.
  • You must keep your firearms unloaded and locked away in a rack, stout cabinet, steel cabinet or strongroom."
There are probably lots of other good reasons, but I would guess that's one.

Cheers - N


Case by case would be more acceptable, You don't have to store it securely if you are with it. In my example I have my own office. When such an item arrives I keep it with me until I can take it home or to a preapproved storage facility. This may not be possible if you work in a factory or are a bank teller tongue-out


And what happens if the fire alarm goes off or your go to the toilet, do you take it with you? I wouldn't have thought so and then its not with you which means its not following the rules. 

If I had just brought a new gun I most certainly would take it with me if the fire alarm went off (they come in a box you know)




Matthew


andrew027
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  #1451622 16-Dec-2015 14:39
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Maybe the rule is intended to prevent disgruntled postal workers having a gun delivered to work?  But seriously...

I don't know what special requirements are placed on the courier when delivering firearms - I would hope they would only hand the package over to the person named on the address label with proof of ID (preferably the firearms licence). But every time I have ever had stuff delivered to work (including an expensive item that I had requested the retailer have delivered only to me) it always ends up getting left with a receptionist. I think having firearms delivered to the purchaser's residential address is a good idea as means there is much less chance of them falling into the wrong hands (I don't mean "criminal" hands, just "not the registered purchaser" hands), but this only makes sense if the rule applies to all firearms - shotguns, rifles, pistols, whatever.



mdooher

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  #1451624 16-Dec-2015 14:43
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BTR:
JamesL: Aww, poor gun owners. /s



Unless you are a hunter, farmer doing pest control or a target shooter you don't have any need for a gun. 



Completely agree, you are 80 percent correct. I use mine for those things, In fact I can think of only a couple of other lawful uses. However we also have collectors, who are perfectly entitled as well.




Matthew


mdooher

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  #1451628 16-Dec-2015 14:51
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andrew027: Maybe the rule is intended to prevent disgruntled postal workers having a gun delivered to work?  But seriously...

I don't know what special requirements are placed on the courier when delivering firearms - I would hope they would only hand the package over to the person named on the address label with proof of ID (preferably the firearms licence). But every time I have ever had stuff delivered to work (including an expensive item that I had requested the retailer have delivered only to me) it always ends up getting left with a receptionist. I think having firearms delivered to the purchaser's residential address is a good idea as means there is much less chance of them falling into the wrong hands (I don't mean "criminal" hands, just "not the registered purchaser" hands), but this only makes sense if the rule applies to all firearms - shotguns, rifles, pistols, whatever.


The issue is the courier will probably give the gun to whoever is at the residential property as well. If that person accepts the parcel knowing it is a gun (and they don't have a licence) they break the law.

Certainly part of the issue is the way the courier companies deal with the package.

Not that I'm condoning either of these  but I think dropping the parcel off to my receptionist would be far safer than dropping it off to a teenager home after school.




Matthew


NonprayingMantis
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  #1451671 16-Dec-2015 15:24
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mdooher:
Talkiet:
mdooher:
Talkiet:
mdooher: Bloody stupid, The new mail order procedure makes it mandatory for firearms to be delivered to the address on the firearms licence holders record. No longer can we have guns delivered to ourselves at work.
So now we either need to take the day off work or find the card in the mailbox and go and collect the gun from the Depot (when it's open)

The funny thing is this only applies to standard A-cat rifles and shotguns. MSSAs and pistols can still be delivered to wherever the owner happens to be.

Thanks HDPA. and Thanks Police National HQ for another kneejerk reaction.


HOW MANY GUNS do you buy that make this an issue?!?

Cheers - N


The point I'm making is, Why do this? If the Police are happy for a person to have their pistol delivered to work why not their shotgun?


Fair point, it should definitely be extended to all firearms (and in fact, all licensed weapons)... 

Cheers - N


Why? the licence holder is legally allowed to possess it for a sufficient purpose...like receiving it from the courier. So why should they have an extra condition imposed? particularly one that doesn't make it any more likely that the gun will not be stolen.

Here's my guess:

the purpose of this law isn't to annoy legit gun owners.

The purpose of the law is to reduce the amount of guns purchased fraudulently where people can get around the licensing restrictions by making up a licence number and then arranging to have the gun delivered to another address. 

If the delivery can only happen to the address registered, then even if someone successfully guess a genuine licence number, the delivery can still only go to the legit licence holder, and not some other address.


allio
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  #1451675 16-Dec-2015 15:29
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mdooher:
If I had just brought a new gun I most certainly would take it with me if the fire alarm went off (they come in a box you know)


Wow, at my work we get told off if we take a cup of coffee or a handbag with us. Wonder how they'd react to the guy trooping down the emergency stairs with a shotgun under his arm?



richms
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  #1451683 16-Dec-2015 15:42
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allio:
mdooher:
If I had just brought a new gun I most certainly would take it with me if the fire alarm went off (they come in a box you know)


Wow, at my work we get told off if we take a cup of coffee or a handbag with us. Wonder how they'd react to the guy trooping down the emergency stairs with a shotgun under his arm?


I had that before at a place. Told them that if the wanted me to leave my bag then they would be liable for anything in it and to STFU about it. Can see that setting off a fire alarm and then stealing peoples stuff would be an easy way for dodgey people to get stuff so no way am I leaving my personal stuff.

Guns usually come in a large non-descript cardboard box, with nothing on them to identify the sender as a gun shop, frequently wrapped in black pallet tape as well so its not likly to be opened and re-sealed.




Richard rich.ms

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  #1451688 16-Dec-2015 15:53
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NonprayingMantis: 
Why? the licence holder is legally allowed to possess it for a sufficient purpose...like receiving it from the courier. So why should they have an extra condition imposed? particularly one that doesn't make it any more likely that the gun will not be stolen.
Here's my guess:

the purpose of this law isn't to annoy legit gun owners.

The purpose of the law is to reduce the amount of guns purchased fraudulently where people can get around the licensing restrictions by making up a licence number and then arranging to have the gun delivered to another address. 

If the delivery can only happen to the address registered, then even if someone successfully guess a genuine licence number, the delivery can still only go to the legit licence holder, and not some other address.


 

There is a major flaw in your argument. What is outlined in the police mail order rules document is not the law, it is only a police policy and is likely to be unenforceable if challenged in court (the police rely on the public purse for fighting court cases, individuals don't have that privilege). It is not the job of the police to make laws only to enforce those passed by parliament.

 

You also mention someone guessing a genuine license number, I'm assuming referencing HDPA, it is suspected, that the license number used belongs to an associate, not really a guess if that is the case.

 

It has also emerged that in all the gun shop audits prior to the show and since the show, no fraudulent transactions have been found. Much like every other country in the world, including Australia with far tighter rules, criminals don't acquire guns from shops directly all the while paying from a traceable bank account. Criminals have a thriving black market to source what they might desire be it weapons, drugs, cars and or anything else. 


The best solution I can see is a system where by the gun dealers can easily (and securely) check both the purchaser details - name, address, contact number, license as well as the co-signing police officers details, against a register that the police complete when actually sighting and signing the mail order form.

networkn
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  #1451700 16-Dec-2015 16:11
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mdooher: Bloody stupid, The new mail order procedure makes it mandatory for firearms to be delivered to the address on the firearms licence holders record. No longer can we have guns delivered to ourselves at work.
So now we either need to take the day off work or find the card in the mailbox and go and collect the gun from the Depot (when it's open)

The funny thing is this only applies to standard A-cat rifles and shotguns. MSSAs and pistols can still be delivered to wherever the owner happens to be.

Thanks HDPA. and Thanks Police National HQ for another kneejerk reaction.


Can't see what the problem is. Hardly the end of the world. Owning a gun is a privilege.

I would NOT be happy if my staff had guns delivered to the office. 

mdooher

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  #1451744 16-Dec-2015 17:23
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networkn:
mdooher: Bloody stupid, The new mail order procedure makes it mandatory for firearms to be delivered to the address on the firearms licence holders record. No longer can we have guns delivered to ourselves at work.
So now we either need to take the day off work or find the card in the mailbox and go and collect the gun from the Depot (when it's open)

The funny thing is this only applies to standard A-cat rifles and shotguns. MSSAs and pistols can still be delivered to wherever the owner happens to be.

Thanks HDPA. and Thanks Police National HQ for another kneejerk reaction.


Can't see what the problem is. Hardly the end of the world. Owning a gun is a privilege.

I would NOT be happy if my staff had guns delivered to the office. 


Interesting. Why would you not be happy? It would be in a nondescript package and also be completely harmless. ( they are never shipped with ammunition) what's the difference with someone getting say a car part or fishing rod?

Is it some other safety concern or just a gut feeling?

My wife had a Lord of the Rings sword shipped from the states to her work. If having a weapon around was the problem I would be far more worried about that.




Matthew


richms
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  #1451748 16-Dec-2015 17:26
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Machined metal parts is a good enough desciption if someone wants to know what it is anyway.




Richard rich.ms

surfisup1000
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  #1451758 16-Dec-2015 17:41
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mdooher:
Talkiet:
mdooher: Bloody stupid, The new mail order procedure makes it mandatory for firearms to be delivered to the address on the firearms licence holders record. No longer can we have guns delivered to ourselves at work.
So now we either need to take the day off work or find the card in the mailbox and go and collect the gun from the Depot (when it's open)

The funny thing is this only applies to standard A-cat rifles and shotguns. MSSAs and pistols can still be delivered to wherever the owner happens to be.

Thanks HDPA. and Thanks Police National HQ for another kneejerk reaction.


HOW MANY GUNS do you buy that make this an issue?!?

Cheers - N


The point I'm making is, Why do this? If the Police are happy for a person to have their pistol delivered to work why not their shotgun?


Because it might not be your work -- it might be a gangster pad. 

Thats the whole point, and seems reasonable to me. 

You can get couriers to hold at their depot and collect direct. 

I see the inconvenience but this is a firearm that can kill people in the wrong hands. 

I'm unhappy with postal orders full stop myself. 


mdooher

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  #1451765 16-Dec-2015 17:46
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surfisup1000:
mdooher:
Talkiet:
mdooher: Bloody stupid, The new mail order procedure makes it mandatory for firearms to be delivered to the address on the firearms licence holders record. No longer can we have guns delivered to ourselves at work.
So now we either need to take the day off work or find the card in the mailbox and go and collect the gun from the Depot (when it's open)

The funny thing is this only applies to standard A-cat rifles and shotguns. MSSAs and pistols can still be delivered to wherever the owner happens to be.

Thanks HDPA. and Thanks Police National HQ for another kneejerk reaction.


HOW MANY GUNS do you buy that make this an issue?!?

Cheers - N


The point I'm making is, Why do this? If the Police are happy for a person to have their pistol delivered to work why not their shotgun?


Because it might not be your work -- it might be a gangster pad. 

Thats the whole point, and seems reasonable to me. 

You can get couriers to hold at their depot and collect direct. 

I see the inconvenience but this is a firearm that can kill people in the wrong hands. 

I'm unhappy with postal orders full stop myself. 


Ok so a police approved firearms licence holder (who had to personally visit the station to get the form signed and approved) is going to have it sent to a gang pad? ... Pull the other one




Matthew


mdooher

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  #1451767 16-Dec-2015 17:53
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To be honest I would be very happy to have all mail order guns delivered to the nearest Police station.

If safety rather than public perception was paramount then this is the obvious solution. Of course they won't do that because they don't want to spend taxpayers money on making the system safer. Why? Because it would be a waste of public money.




Matthew


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