Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
Glurp
9714 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4636

Subscriber

  Reply # 1685462 9-Dec-2016 19:20
Send private message

I understand that. My objection is holding out false hope to the below average with crap about 'hard work'. All the hard work in the world will never change their situation. They can better aim for the minimum they can get away with. Maybe then they can at least enjoying fishing on the weekends.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


320 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 56
Inactive user


  Reply # 1685463 9-Dec-2016 19:26
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

I understand that. My objection is holding out false hope to the below average with crap about 'hard work'. All the hard work in the world will never change their situation. They can better aim for the minimum they can get away with. Maybe then they can at least enjoying fishing on the weekends.

 

 

What should people say?  There are opportunities for them - some might take a chance and start their own business or whatever.  It's not like they can't change their situation with.. [insert your phrase].  And "hard work" is the easiest way to hand wave about it.  Below average have bettered themselves before, one might arguably point back to Gareth Morgan.


 
 
 
 


13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1685465 9-Dec-2016 19:31
One person supports this post
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

I understand that. My objection is holding out false hope to the below average with crap about 'hard work'. All the hard work in the world will never change their situation. They can better aim for the minimum they can get away with. Maybe then they can at least enjoying fishing on the weekends.

 

 

 

 

That is incredibly defeatist. I have a much more optimistic view of the world. I have examples close to me that shows the opposite to your grim view. Someone very close to me left school with no qualifications and returned to work post children and is now earning in excess of $300,000 pa





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


721 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 105


  Reply # 1685472 9-Dec-2016 19:44
One person supports this post
Send private message

MikeB4:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I understand that. My objection is holding out false hope to the below average with crap about 'hard work'. All the hard work in the world will never change their situation. They can better aim for the minimum they can get away with. Maybe then they can at least enjoying fishing on the weekends.

 

 

 

 

That is incredibly defeatist. I have a much more optimistic view of the world. I have examples close to me that shows the opposite to your grim view. Someone very close to me left school with no qualifications and returned to work post children and is now earning in excess of $300,000 pa

 

 

 

 

My Great Uncle started a company with absolutely no qualifications with the purchase of two trucks through hard work, perseverance and some knowledge. And at his death he was still running the business with no formal qualifications doing over 500mil in revenue. 

 

Anythings possible if you have a passion and a bit of luck.


735 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 174


  Reply # 1685518 9-Dec-2016 20:51
Send private message

I don't think anyone is disputing that (financial) success can come from different socio-economic situations, though it's probably another topic. It's the fact it is becoming more difficult for perhaps, middle NZers to achieve realistic goals. Because of the way the tax system is structured. I certainly agree that Gareth Morgan is a polarising figure, I have economics bent and have worked for finance companies but have not studied accountancy or economics. In fact most of my work is basically maths. I've read two of his books, The Big Kahuna, and the his climate book, Poles Apart and it makes for interesting reading. But again, his views come across as radically different. But then again, if no one thinks that private debt ratios are a problem then we can keep the status quo.


8114 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4395


  Reply # 1685530 9-Dec-2016 21:28
Send private message

Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

Geektastic:

 

"By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received."

 

 

 

Total tax revenue (Year to June 2016) was $ 74 billion.
24% of that is about $18 billion.  I guarantee that the top 3% of income earners, probably fewer than 50,000 people do not contribute $18 billion, or an average of $360,000 in tax each per annum.
Personal income tax is only about < 40% of total tax revenue (the rest is company tax, GST, withholding tax, excises, duties etc., government also make about another $20 billion in dividends, sale of goods (electricity) and services etc).

 

The 24% figure is 24% of income tax, it's about $7.5 billion and only about 10% of total tax revenue, about 8% of total revenue.

 

I suspect it's also a "theoretical" figure based on tax which would be payable on gross income rather than what's actually paid on declared taxable income.

 

That's impressive how you got to "I guarantee" on the back of reasoning like "probably fewer than...", "only about..." and "I Suspect".

 

 

 

The figure quoted (3% pay 24% of tax revenue) is impossible even if you allow a huge margin of error.  Estimates are good enough to show that.

 

It was great story to try to convince the poor that they should be ever so grateful to the rich.  Shame that as presented, it simply isn't true. Also a shame that dingbat journalists publish such tripe without taking a few minutes to think about it.

 

 

 

 


8114 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4395


  Reply # 1685534 9-Dec-2016 21:43
Send private message

mudguard:

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that (financial) success can come from different socio-economic situations, though it's probably another topic. 

 

 

No it is on topic.  Yes that success can come, however statistically, it's highly improbable, hence the high regard given when somebody from a relatively modest background does "makes good" - such as our PM until Monday.

 

One of Morgan's objectives from the equity tax is for it to work as a kind of "estate tax" - to prevent accumulation of multigenerational wealth. 


13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1685541 9-Dec-2016 22:14
One person supports this post
Send private message

Fred99:

mudguard:


I don't think anyone is disputing that (financial) success can come from different socio-economic situations, though it's probably another topic. 



No it is on topic.  Yes that success can come, however statistically, it's highly improbable, hence the high regard given when somebody from a relatively modest background does "makes good" - such as our PM until Monday.


One of Morgan's objectives from the equity tax is for it to work as a kind of "estate tax" - to prevent accumulation of multigenerational wealth. 



That all reeks of the old death duties that nearly destroyed the UK heritage and resulted in many estates falling to decay or off shore ownership. His proposal is dangerous, it will not have the results he imagines. We would see a torrent of wealth being transferred offshore which will be extremely bad.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


2706 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1307

Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1685542 9-Dec-2016 22:14
Send private message

MikeB4:

 

frankv:

 

Hammerer:

 

It is not "legalised theft" to avoid tax. It is evading tax that is illegal.

 

 

Evading tax is theft. Avoiding tax is legalised theft... if it means you are paying less than your share. "Paying your share" is an ethical decision, not a legal one.

 

 

 

 

If companies and or individuals make deductions against their tax liability that have been sanctioned by parliament then it is not legalised theft. They are doing precisely what they have been authorised

 

to do. Now if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation. 

 

 

Yes, it is legal... that is why I used the word "legalised". Yes, they are doing what they are authorised to do. Yes, if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation... although I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. 

 

But...

 

If you know that you're paying less than your fair share of tax, then you are a bludger, picking the pockets of the honest.

 

 


13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1685544 9-Dec-2016 22:23
One person supports this post
Send private message

frankv:

MikeB4:


frankv:


Hammerer:


It is not "legalised theft" to avoid tax. It is evading tax that is illegal.



Evading tax is theft. Avoiding tax is legalised theft... if it means you are paying less than your share. "Paying your share" is an ethical decision, not a legal one.


 



If companies and or individuals make deductions against their tax liability that have been sanctioned by parliament then it is not legalised theft. They are doing precisely what they have been authorised


to do. Now if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation. 



Yes, it is legal... that is why I used the word "legalised". Yes, they are doing what they are authorised to do. Yes, if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation... although I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. 


But...


If you know that you're paying less than your fair share of tax, then you are a bludger, picking the pockets of the honest.


 



Define a fair share, is it 10%, 20%, 50%. Is it a fair share if all tax payers pay a flat 20%. Is it a fair share if you work harder, and work 60 70 80 hours per week spend a futune on higher education and earn more that you pay a higher percentage.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


2706 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1307

Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1685545 9-Dec-2016 22:29
Send private message

MikeB4:
That all reeks of the old death duties that nearly destroyed the UK heritage and resulted in many estates falling to decay or off shore ownership.

 

 

Because their ancestors built houses and castles beyond the ability of their less-capable descendants to finance & maintain, the old aristocracy should be subsidised and supported? I don't think so.

 

 

His proposal is dangerous, it will not have the results he imagines. We would see a torrent of wealth being transferred offshore which will be extremely bad.

 

I agree. Not that we don't already have a torrent of wealth flowing overseas.

 

 


13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1685547 9-Dec-2016 22:39
Send private message

We don't need to subsidise the wealthy we also do not need to fleece them with excessive taxes and other charges. Everyone should pay a flat equal rate of taxation. To do the opposite would wreck our economy, drive up unemployment, kill investment, job creation and growth.

A person on $35,000 doesn't invest in business and new ventures but someone on say $300,000 does.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


2706 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1307

Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1685548 9-Dec-2016 22:44
Send private message

MikeB4:

Define a fair share, is it 10%, 20%, 50%. Is it a fair share if all tax payers pay a flat 20%. Is it a fair share if you work harder, and work 60 70 80 hours per week spend a futune on higher education and earn more that you pay a higher percentage.

 

OTOH, is it a fair share if you work harder, and work 60 70 80 hours per week, can't spend a fortune on higher education, so you earn the same as someone who works a lot less? I would also argue that wealthier people get more benefits from tax-provided services (e.g. they drive more, they fly more, their wealth is protected by tax-funded police, etc) so they ought to pay more.

 

And, yes indeed... one person's perception of fair will differ from another's.

 

In this case, Gareth Morgan himself says he doesn't pay his fair share, so you'll have to ask him what his definition of "fair" is. But I guess he thinks it would be fair if he paid another $300K pa, since (a) that's what he reckons his proposed changes would cost him, and (b) he reckons the changes would make NZ fair.

 

 


12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1685550 9-Dec-2016 22:56
Send private message

MikeB4:
Fred99:

 

mudguard:

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that (financial) success can come from different socio-economic situations, though it's probably another topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No it is on topic.  Yes that success can come, however statistically, it's highly improbable, hence the high regard given when somebody from a relatively modest background does "makes good" - such as our PM until Monday.

 

 

 

One of Morgan's objectives from the equity tax is for it to work as a kind of "estate tax" - to prevent accumulation of multigenerational wealth. 

 



That all reeks of the old death duties that nearly destroyed the UK heritage and resulted in many estates falling to decay or off shore ownership. His proposal is dangerous, it will not have the results he imagines. We would see a torrent of wealth being transferred offshore which will be extremely bad.

 

 

 

Death Duties were responsible for the loss of so many wonderful country houses - it was criminal. The unfortunate owners who were faced with the taxes sometimes ended up demolishing the houses because after paying the tax they had nothing left to run them. Britain lost a significant chunk of it's built heritage.

 

Indeed, so bad was the situation that the National Trust was actually invented to help save the houses and estates - by bequeathing the houses etc to the NT, the Executors avoided having to pay the taxes as they were remitted in return.

 

My Great Grandfather died unexpectedly and had not yet made adequate estate planning provisions, so the family lost 3000 acres of prime Home Counties farmland because it had to be sold to pay the taxes due on his death.






12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1685551 9-Dec-2016 22:59
Send private message

frankv:

 

MikeB4:

 

frankv:

 

Hammerer:

 

It is not "legalised theft" to avoid tax. It is evading tax that is illegal.

 

 

Evading tax is theft. Avoiding tax is legalised theft... if it means you are paying less than your share. "Paying your share" is an ethical decision, not a legal one.

 

 

 

 

If companies and or individuals make deductions against their tax liability that have been sanctioned by parliament then it is not legalised theft. They are doing precisely what they have been authorised

 

to do. Now if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation. 

 

 

Yes, it is legal... that is why I used the word "legalised". Yes, they are doing what they are authorised to do. Yes, if one wants those deductions stopped one needs to lobby parliament for change in legislation... although I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. 

 

But...

 

If you know that you're paying less than your fair share of tax, then you are a bludger, picking the pockets of the honest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You probably need some help with that chip on your shoulder - it must be weighing you down.

 

 






1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Orcon announces new always-on internet service for Small Business
Posted 18-Apr-2019 10:19


Spark Sport prices for Rugby World Cup 2019 announced
Posted 16-Apr-2019 07:58


2degrees launches new unlimited mobile plan
Posted 15-Apr-2019 09:35


Redgate brings together major industry speakers for SQL in the City Summits
Posted 13-Apr-2019 12:35


Exported honey authenticated on Blockchain
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:19


HPE and Nutanix partner to deliver hybrid cloud as a service
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:12


Southern Cross and ASN sign contract for Southern Cross NEXT
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:09


Data security top New Zealand consumer priority when choosing a bank
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:07


Samsung announces first 8K screens to hit New Zealand
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:03


New cyber-protection and insurance product for businesses launched in APAC
Posted 10-Apr-2019 20:59


Kiwis ensure streaming is never interrupted by opting for uncapped broadband plans
Posted 7-Apr-2019 09:05


DHL Express introduces new MyDHL+ online portal to make shipping easier
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:51


RackWare hybrid cloud platform removes barriers to enterprise cloud adoption
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:50


Top partner named at MYOB High Achievers Awards
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:48


Great ideas start in Gisborne with hackathon event back for another round
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:42



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.