Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1686355 12-Dec-2016 09:37
Send private message

jonb: My general point is as a country we seen to spend about the same proportion of income on housing regardless. I would rather a higher proportion of that spend, which we will be spending anyway, went as tax rather than mortgage/rent ( soneone elses mortgage) to the banks. Similar to parts of US where houses are cheaper but property taxes are higher.

 

The US does have some anomalies that contribute to that such as much longer fixed mortgage rates than we have. It is common in the US to fix your rate for 25 or 30 years, which obviously has a significant effect on household budgets - the rates are usually quite low. My brother in the US has a fixed rate less than 4% for 25 years IIRC and I can find 3.99% fixed for 30 years on line right now.

 

 

 

Additionally, mortgage costs and property taxes, repairs and so on are tax deductions from your annual income tax calculations for Federal tax. 

 

Taxpayers can deduct the interest paid on first and second mortgages up to $1,000,000 in mortgage debt (the limit is $500,000 if married and filing separately). Property taxes (i.e. rates) are given as a tax credit on your income tax calculations too.

 

 

 

 






12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1686358 12-Dec-2016 09:49
Send private message

JayADee: Here is a paper on the idea of UBI in NZ, worth a read: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlabour/pages/4208/attachments/original/1461211267/Background_Paper_-_A_Universal_Basic_Income_for_New_Zealand.pdf?1461211267



 

 

 

Another issue is this:

 

 

 

Person A receives his basic income and wastes it. He and his family are starving with 2 weeks to go until the next payment.

 

Society wishes to shield him from the consequences of his actions. He therefore gets 'emergency payments' to feed his children and himself.

 

Therefore UBI has not succeeded in banishing other welfare payments, one of the stated benefits of having one.

 

 

 

I still think a better option is $x amount free of tax as a Personal Allowance. This allows the low paid to work tax free in effect but has the advantage of actually requiring work for pay in order to take advantage of the concession.






 
 
 
 


12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1686359 12-Dec-2016 09:49
Send private message

JayADee: Here is a paper on the idea of UBI in NZ, worth a read: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlabour/pages/4208/attachments/original/1461211267/Background_Paper_-_A_Universal_Basic_Income_for_New_Zealand.pdf?1461211267



 

 

 

Another issue is this:

 

 

 

Person A receives his basic income and wastes it. He and his family are starving with 2 weeks to go until the next payment.

 

Society wishes to shield him from the consequences of his actions. He therefore gets 'emergency payments' to feed his children and himself.

 

Therefore UBI has not succeeded in banishing other welfare payments, one of the stated benefits of having one.

 

 

 

I still think a better option is $x amount free of tax as a Personal Allowance. This allows the low paid to work tax free in effect but has the advantage of actually requiring work for pay in order to take advantage of the concession.






1602 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 232


  Reply # 1686546 12-Dec-2016 14:04
Send private message

Wow, Ontario, Canada is going to do a trial in 2017 of Basic Income:
http://bigthink.com/natalie-shoemaker/canada-testing-a-system-where-it-gives-its-poorest-citizens-1320-a-month

Geektastic: people don't do that on the pension now and trials of UBI suggest they don't do it on UBI either.

12681 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4206

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1686551 12-Dec-2016 14:25
Send private message

JayADee: Wow, Ontario, Canada is going to do a trial in 2017 of Basic Income:
http://bigthink.com/natalie-shoemaker/canada-testing-a-system-where-it-gives-its-poorest-citizens-1320-a-month

Geektastic: people don't do that on the pension now and trials of UBI suggest they don't do it on UBI either.

 

 

 

But someone will. Especially if there are few other benefits etc available and GM suggests canning a fair few of them.

 

You need some kind of response when it happens. 






59 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 1


  Reply # 1686553 12-Dec-2016 14:31
Send private message

Seems a long winded way to restore equity in taxation - why not just get rid of the exemptions around property taxation and be done with it. Put every investment onto the same level playing field or whatever jargon is used today. If your rental can't return a profit in the way a normal business would without using tax exemptions, it's a bad investment and you should get rid of it. Simplifies tax regime and no capital taxation needed.

 

 


1670 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 905


  Reply # 1686554 12-Dec-2016 14:36
One person supports this post
Send private message

Ramjet99:

 

Seems a long winded way to restore equity in taxation - why not just get rid of the exemptions around property taxation and be done with it. Put every investment onto the same level playing field or whatever jargon is used today. If your rental can't return a profit in the way a normal business would without using tax exemptions, it's a bad investment and you should get rid of it. Simplifies tax regime and no capital taxation needed.

 

 

 

 

Any business that borrows money can offset the interest on this loan against profit and so reduce tax; interest is a legitimate business expense.  Are you saying this should be different for a business that is providing rental accommodation?


1602 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 232


  Reply # 1686565 12-Dec-2016 15:09
Send private message

Geektastic:

JayADee: Wow, Ontario, Canada is going to do a trial in 2017 of Basic Income:
http://bigthink.com/natalie-shoemaker/canada-testing-a-system-where-it-gives-its-poorest-citizens-1320-a-month

Geektastic: people don't do that on the pension now and trials of UBI suggest they don't do it on UBI either.


 


But someone will. Especially if there are few other benefits etc available and GM suggests canning a fair few of them.


You need some kind of response when it happens. 



Isn't the current response a loan which is then paid back plus budgeting advice?

8138 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4420


  Reply # 1686573 12-Dec-2016 15:31
Send private message

shk292:

 

Ramjet99:

 

Seems a long winded way to restore equity in taxation - why not just get rid of the exemptions around property taxation and be done with it. Put every investment onto the same level playing field or whatever jargon is used today. If your rental can't return a profit in the way a normal business would without using tax exemptions, it's a bad investment and you should get rid of it. Simplifies tax regime and no capital taxation needed.

 

 

 

 

Any business that borrows money can offset the interest on this loan against profit and so reduce tax; interest is a legitimate business expense.  Are you saying this should be different for a business that is providing rental accommodation?

 

 

 

 

That is a suggestion I believe.  Not mine.

 

Tinkering has consequences.  I guess you could say that if removal of negative gearing impacted negatively on investment residential property, the money might be put to better use (productively) elsewhere.  But counter to that, there really isn't money, as the offset works when you're highly geared, buying "investment" property with cash is nuts.  If they make borrowing to buy investment property nuts as well - by eliminating negative gearing - then they'll kill dead the already inadequate investment in apartments etc.

 

The real answer is that there isn't going to be a painless answer.  What's coming - be it by legislative change, collapse of a bubble if that's what our ludicrous home prices turn out to be, or some economic shock which puts the brakes on credit globally - it's going to hurt.

 

Interest rates in particular, that several billion taken directly out of the local economy and shipped offshore with every 1% rise in mortgage rates.  Landlord investors (with other income) might think that's okay as some of that can be clawed back against income, but I bet Bill E is well aware that even though the bulk of debt is private, they'll be clawing back much of it directly from govt coffers.

 

Apart from negative gearing, the taxpayer is also subsidising landlords by a couple of billion $$ PA, as tenants can't afford rental prices, so get accommodation supplements - which is a crazy thing for govt to do.

 

It's no wonder there's a "but you can't lose" attitude by the multitudes of mum and dad investors expecting endless ongoing free money.


13874 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1686576 12-Dec-2016 15:43
Send private message

Fred99:

 

 

 

Apart from negative gearing, the taxpayer is also subsidising landlords by a couple of billion $$ PA, as tenants can't afford rental prices, so get accommodation supplements - which is a crazy thing for govt to do.

 

 

 

 

would you prefer to see folks homeless?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


5369 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2198


  Reply # 1686585 12-Dec-2016 16:22
One person supports this post
Send private message

It's quite common in overseas jurisdictions to tax capital at the point of sale - death duty, stamp duty, capital gains tax etc.

 

It seems to be uncommon to tax base capital during a person's ownership of it. 

 

I can see couple of reasons why it might be a bad idea: -

 

1) The person may have equity in a fixed asset, but that doesn't mean they have the the requisite cash available to pay an equity tax.

 

2) What is an asset actually worth? Rateable value or insurance value are not market value.  They are nominal values.  Someone's guess at what a buyer might pay.  Probably why most taxes on capital occur are calculated on purchase prices - because those are real values.





Mike

8138 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4420


  Reply # 1686594 12-Dec-2016 16:56
Send private message

MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

Apart from negative gearing, the taxpayer is also subsidising landlords by a couple of billion $$ PA, as tenants can't afford rental prices, so get accommodation supplements - which is a crazy thing for govt to do.

 

 

would you prefer to see folks homeless?

 

 

No - of course I wouldn't.  I wouldn't like to see the government force landlords to reduce rent either.

 

But accommodation supplement has wormed it's way from being an occasional top-up to being something which seems to be a normal expectation or entitlement - and it's now costing a lot of money.

 

It's one part of a picture where despite economic growth, something's out of balance.  I presume a lot of it's going to working people who can't afford to rent where they're working and can't get work where housing is more affordable. That combined with wages which are IMO far too low - especially in the cities / Akl. 

 

Even the socialists who were crying out "upskill", playing Springstein's "The River" as an anthem while sipping chardonnay missed a point - that there are many people who just can't make it, for a multitude of reasons.  There's no dignity being poor in NZ, nobody wants to live like that.  It destroys souls.

 

 


13874 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1686606 12-Dec-2016 17:05
Send private message

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

Apart from negative gearing, the taxpayer is also subsidising landlords by a couple of billion $$ PA, as tenants can't afford rental prices, so get accommodation supplements - which is a crazy thing for govt to do.

 

 

would you prefer to see folks homeless?

 

 

No - of course I wouldn't.  I wouldn't like to see the government force landlords to reduce rent either.

 

But accommodation supplement has wormed it's way from being an occasional top-up to being something which seems to be a normal expectation or entitlement - and it's now costing a lot of money.

 

It's one part of a picture where despite economic growth, something's out of balance.  I presume a lot of it's going to working people who can't afford to rent where they're working and can't get work where housing is more affordable. That combined with wages which are IMO far too low - especially in the cities / Akl. 

 

Even the socialists who were crying out "upskill", playing Springstein's "The River" as an anthem while sipping chardonnay missed a point - that there are many people who just can't make it, for a multitude of reasons.  There's no dignity being poor in NZ, nobody wants to live like that.  It destroys souls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

AS was not an occasional top it has for a considerably long been an additional supplement to income tested benefits and those meeting the income/asset test for low income and pensions.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


Glurp
9731 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4650

Subscriber

  Reply # 1686607 12-Dec-2016 17:05
2 people support this post
Send private message

In Holland accommodation supplements are quite normal. Many people are 'poor' and it doesn't destroy their souls. Holland would also be considered a socialist country by many people here and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


5369 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2198


  Reply # 1686861 13-Dec-2016 09:23
2 people support this post
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

In Holland accommodation supplements are quite normal. Many people are 'poor' and it doesn't destroy their souls. Holland would also be considered a socialist country by many people here and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

 

The Netherlands is a useful country to compare with, partly because it is right after us in alphabetised tables.

 

The Netherlands has the wealth to support a high level of social spending.    Their tax take is only about 40% of GDP and ours is about 35% of GDP, not that big of difference in %.   But .... the Netherlands' GDP per capita is five times NZ's GDP per capita (yet still have poverty).  So it's 40% of a shed load more per person.  They have the cash to do things well.

 

The Netherlands has a very large productive economy, high productivity and massive investment in innovation, with a very large market within the EU and substantial export markets as well: Food (dairy), electronics, oil, industrial products, expertise, financial services.  Largely sectors a big chunk of kiwis love to hate ...

 

What interests me is how we could move NZ to a similarly productive economy that can afford a higher level social spending on a reasonable tax rate?

 

 

 

 





Mike

1 | ... | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

NZ and France seek to end use of social media for acts of terrorism
Posted 24-Apr-2019 12:13


Intel introduces the 9th Gen Intel Core mobile processors
Posted 24-Apr-2019 12:03


Spark partners with OPPO to bring new AX5s smartphone to New Zealand
Posted 24-Apr-2019 09:54


Orcon announces new always-on internet service for Small Business
Posted 18-Apr-2019 10:19


Spark Sport prices for Rugby World Cup 2019 announced
Posted 16-Apr-2019 07:58


2degrees launches new unlimited mobile plan
Posted 15-Apr-2019 09:35


Redgate brings together major industry speakers for SQL in the City Summits
Posted 13-Apr-2019 12:35


Exported honey authenticated on Blockchain
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:19


HPE and Nutanix partner to deliver hybrid cloud as a service
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:12


Southern Cross and ASN sign contract for Southern Cross NEXT
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:09


Data security top New Zealand consumer priority when choosing a bank
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:07


Samsung announces first 8K screens to hit New Zealand
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:03


New cyber-protection and insurance product for businesses launched in APAC
Posted 10-Apr-2019 20:59


Kiwis ensure streaming is never interrupted by opting for uncapped broadband plans
Posted 7-Apr-2019 09:05


DHL Express introduces new MyDHL+ online portal to make shipping easier
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:51



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.