Mad Butcher

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#1784327 18-May-2017 15:58

Regarding mince the fat is white the muscle is red. Fattier mince looks lighter in colour i.e. pink

Grey/brown/green = age. I wouldn't buy old mince. There is a lot of surface area for bacteria to grow on ...

Cheap cuts of meat can be nice if you cook them right. Slow casserole, slow BBQ, sous vie etc.

Mike

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kobiak

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#1784328 18-May-2017 16:00

networkn:

BlinkyBill:
Geektastic: There's no obvious way to tell premium and non premium apart as no shop seems to bother actually putting labelling on minced beef to enable you to make an informed decision.

UK supermarkets put average fat percentage stickers on the packs, so premium might be 5%, normal might be 10% etc.

Of course there is. Talk to your butcher. If you can't talk to your butcher, you are shopping in the wrong place.

I love meat, and my butcher is fantastic - I would say a craftsman. He only sells meat he believes in. Very close to a calling, actually. It's delicious.

Please name your butcher, I wish to visit!

Try Grey Lynn butcher just off the Williamson Ave, behind Countdown. Best craft sausages in AKL (chardonnay or blue cheese OMG!) + the best PORK in town :)

helping others at evgenyk.nz

mattwnz

18754 posts

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#1784330 18-May-2017 16:04

networkn:

dafman:

eracode:

Geektastic: There's no obvious way to tell premium and non premium apart as no shop seems to bother actually putting labelling on minced beef to enable you to make an informed decision.

UK supermarkets put average fat percentage stickers on the packs, so premium might be 5%, normal might be 10% etc.

Most NZ supermarkets do distinguish between Prime and Premium beef mince.

I don't need a label:

Good mince (premium) = red meat

Not so good mince = grey meat.

Actually, mince can be grey and be 100% fine, it's just had oxygen exposure. You'll often find your mince goes that colour in the fridge.

To be fair our mince doesn't last long enough for that though.

Don't some super markets use sealed packaging which contain a gas, to keep meat for longer, and keep it looking pinker. The pink colour vs grey, isn't really the issue to me so much. To me, it is the amount of white in the meat, which is the fat. The cheap grades have more fat. You can cook it to get rid of the fat, as it turns into a liquid, and you can then drain that out, but you are then throwing away a lot of the weight you have paid for.

Not directly linked to mince, but with chicken parts on those meat trays, I had heard that some super markets inject it with water. Apparently this is to stop it drying out. But surely it would also increase the weight a lot. I don't think that sort of thing shouldn't be allowed, unless it is clearly disclosed on the packaging, so consumers have a choice.

Pumpedd

1759 posts

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Inactive user

#1784352 18-May-2017 16:57

MikeAqua:

Regarding mince the fat is white the muscle is red. Fattier mince looks lighter in colour i.e. pink

Grey/brown/green = age. I wouldn't buy old mince. There is a lot of surface area for bacteria to grow on ...

Cheap cuts of meat can be nice if you cook them right. Slow casserole, slow BBQ, sous vie etc.

Wrong...the last and final time I went to Mad Butcher, the premium mince was quite whitish as opposed to red. I asked about it and was told the white wasnt fat but rather sinew and other non red meat bits, but that the fat content was still lower than prime mince. they have closed now in my area....wonder why...

mattwnz

18754 posts

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#1784356 18-May-2017 17:07

I thought this topic on mince seemed familiar. This thread has a lot of info on this https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=171451

Including

Beef mince comes in three grades.

Premium - is less than 5% total fat and meets the Heart Foundation Tick criterion of 4% less saturated fat.
Prime - is less than 10% fat.
Standard - has a fat content of 10-20%.

Different cuts of meat are used. Essentially with basic mince you're getting cheaper cuts with higher fat.

bmt

574 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1784605 19-May-2017 09:48

The Mad Butcher doesn't use preservatives in their mince so it will go off colour pretty quickly if you don't use it same day or it has been sitting in the store overnight. I haven't had any issues with the quality from any Mad Butcher store, I've had much worse from Pak n Sav but New World will unsurprisingly always have the best (out of the places I go anyway..).

Geektastic

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#1784610 19-May-2017 10:01

bmt:

The Mad Butcher doesn't use preservatives in their mince so it will go off colour pretty quickly if you don't use it same day or it has been sitting in the store overnight. I haven't had any issues with the quality from any Mad Butcher store, I've had much worse from Pak n Sav but New World will unsurprisingly always have the best (out of the places I go anyway..).

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1784619 19-May-2017 10:27

mattwnz:

networkn:

dafman:

eracode:

Geektastic: There's no obvious way to tell premium and non premium apart as no shop seems to bother actually putting labelling on minced beef to enable you to make an informed decision.

UK supermarkets put average fat percentage stickers on the packs, so premium might be 5%, normal might be 10% etc.

Most NZ supermarkets do distinguish between Prime and Premium beef mince.

I don't need a label:

Good mince (premium) = red meat

Not so good mince = grey meat.

Actually, mince can be grey and be 100% fine, it's just had oxygen exposure. You'll often find your mince goes that colour in the fridge.

To be fair our mince doesn't last long enough for that though.

Don't some super markets use sealed packaging which contain a gas, to keep meat for longer, and keep it looking pinker. The pink colour vs grey, isn't really the issue to me so much. To me, it is the amount of white in the meat, which is the fat. The cheap grades have more fat. You can cook it to get rid of the fat, as it turns into a liquid, and you can then drain that out, but you are then throwing away a lot of the weight you have paid for.

Not directly linked to mince, but with chicken parts on those meat trays, I had heard that some super markets inject it with water. Apparently this is to stop it drying out. But surely it would also increase the weight a lot. I don't think that sort of thing shouldn't be allowed, unless it is clearly disclosed on the packaging, so consumers have a choice.

I don't know about "some" supermarkets - more like "most" or close to all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide#Meat_coloring

Not just mince - they use it with cuts of meat on trays. It's very effective - sliced meat like schnitzel, the outside of the meat slice exposed to the CO in the pack is brighter red than the parts of slices which lapped other slices in the tray. Same with thicker cuts, where they'll be bright red on the outside, darker/duller when you cut it.

Note that the process is banned in Japan and the EU.

Not sure if they inject chicken cuts with water. There's a lot of water used in chicken processing, automated slaughter etc means there's crop contents and poop everywhere which needs cleaning, hence salmonella and campylobacter risk from uncooked / undercooked chicken and cross contamination from chicken "juice". (If you were to carefully home kill and butcher a chicken - it could or should be safe to eat undercooked).

They used to make chicken nuggets by micronizing and chemically stabilising chicken skin etc, then needle-injecting it into the meat as the fat etc softened the meat and stopped it drying out when cooked, thus more palatable to children - who don't matter, apparently. Note that McDonald's claim to not use this process for McNuggets - you're more likely to get that kind of crap in "family packs" of chicken nuggets at the supermarket.

Processed meats like ham, bacon etc, they process it with phosphates and other chemicals to make it bind / hold water. I suspect that there's plenty enough evidence now to consider that these meats should be avoided for health reasons entirely - with possible exception of use as a condiment (ie bacon or salami perhaps on a pizza or whatever). If you're going to limit volume (wise IMO) then probably a good idea to buy smaller quantities of better quality, which not only tastes better, cooks better as it's not full of water, but there's better chance that the animals were free-farmed.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1784622 19-May-2017 10:29

Geektastic:

bmt:

The Mad Butcher doesn't use preservatives in their mince so it will go off colour pretty quickly if you don't use it same day or it has been sitting in the store overnight. I haven't had any issues with the quality from any Mad Butcher store, I've had much worse from Pak n Sav but New World will unsurprisingly always have the best (out of the places I go anyway..).

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

It (CO packaging) is not a preservative as such. IIRC NZ food regs, minced beef isn't allowed to contain preservatives.

MikeAqua

6893 posts

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#1784624 19-May-2017 10:37

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

Mike

Geektastic

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#1784659 19-May-2017 11:03

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

MAP - Modified Atmosphere Packaging

cadman

1014 posts

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#1784664 19-May-2017 11:16

Geektastic:
And are supermarkets obliged to obey those criteria or not?

No. You're right - they're meaningless terms, like "organic".

MikeAqua

6893 posts

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#1784683 19-May-2017 11:51

Geektastic:

MAP - Modified Atmosphere Packaging

Exactly - additives but seemingly not ingredients that have to be declared?

In meat carbon-monoxide can be used to bind to the haemoglobin making it red.

Mike

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1784686 19-May-2017 12:07

MikeAqua:

Geektastic:

Since I have never seen a label on a packet of mince that states it contains preservative, I presume no one uses it?

You can gas flush meat so it stays red longer. Depending on the gas(es) used it does have a preservative effect.

I'm not sure whether gases used in this way have to be listed as ingredients.

For example bags of sliced apples are packed in nitrogen flushed packaging. This displaces the oxygen and stops them browning, but you won't find nitrogen in the list of ingredients.

It's not the same as MAP, as the function isn't to increase shelf life or modify ripening characteristics as in fruit etc.

The function is solely to make the meat look better than it actually is - and this is actually based on lack of consumer knowledge of what fresh meat looks like, as it's not pink/red unless I expect it was cut up within seconds of slaughter.

IMO it's controversial for good reason, as even if small there is some risk (that it masks food spoilage at least) and no benefit - except for marketing. They should have to disclose it the same way as food colorings.

BTR

1522 posts

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#1784727 19-May-2017 13:47

MikeAqua:

BTR:

Not surprised TBH but have tried their meat and don't like the quality plus the shops always stink of chemicals.

Chemical smell = clean. I find that reassuring.

It wasn't a chemical cleaner smell more of an additives smell i.e. meat binders

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