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  Reply # 1846119 14-Aug-2017 07:17
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Geektastic: I'm in Vietnam as I write this. In two days, I've seen more vehicles than I see in a year in NZ.

China and India will doubtless be even worse. We could all start riding horses and living in caves in NZ but unless we can figure out how to get these billions out of their cars, trucks, buses, mopeds etc we may as well try and raise sea level by spitting into the ocean.

 

I believe China is hot on getting EV's up and running. Not for climate change but to stem their pollution which is an annual killer in the big cities


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  Reply # 1846120 14-Aug-2017 07:30
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dramatic:

 

We are certified tree-hugging hippies - we live off grid with solar and microhydro. Unlike many people generating our own power, we downsized our power usage first - 6-star fridge and 5.5-star freezer, very few appliances (coffee grinder and laptops! :-)

 

We've just upgraded to a more fuel efficient vehicle and switched to 95 fuel (greater efficiency means about 3.5% less fuel used compared to 91) - nitrogen in tyres to maintain best efficiency. Our next vehicle will probably be electric, but we'd need to upgrade our power system first.

 

We're getting rid of our pine resources and planting more suitable firewood trees for coppicing. Pine makes absolutely lousy firewood as it is very slow-drying compared to most firewood species. The NZ guidebook to firewood forestry discounts pine completely. Most of the split pine you buy from firewood yards has been kiln-dried (by burning waste oil or gas!)

 

Minimising food miles by growing what we can and swapping at the local village (we're at altitude, most people there aren't).

 

We're planning a straw-bale house that we aim will be so thermally efficient it basically won't need space heating.

 

 

Interesting stats on 91 vs. 95 can you please provide more information on this? I have never seen this in all my time testing the differences between the 2. I always ended up with exactly the same usage in a car designed for 91. A car tuned for 95 however can see some results.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1846121 14-Aug-2017 07:31
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cadman:

Rikkitic:


shk292:


Please, not the 97% bogus stat!  That's been debunked so many times it has as much credibility as Santa Claus.


I'm not arguing against climate change, just that specific "fact".



It doesn't really matter if it is 97% or 99%. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of reputable scientists agree that climate change is real. A smaller but still significant majority believe it is anthropogenic.



If it doesn't matter then why does it keep getting rolled out as part of the discussion? If there's no definitive list of these scientists and their individual positions, how do we know there's a majority? And even if there is a majority belief, there was once a majority belief that the world was flat too.


I certainly don't believe anthropogenic sources are a significant factor in climate change.



May I ask what your evidence is that leads you to believe that close to 1000 peer reviewed studies supporting anthropogenic causes are wrong?




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  Reply # 1846123 14-Aug-2017 07:47
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A question I have is why are folks who suggest changes and promote the idea of saving the only viable home we have while it is still viable treated with such disdain ?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  Reply # 1846132 14-Aug-2017 08:11
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MikeB4: A question I have is why are folks who suggest changes and promote the idea of saving the only viable home we have while it is still viable treated with such disdain ?

 

In my opinion, when anyone gets rich of these kind of theories, ridiculous trading schemes where there is a huge money-go-round that is where the creditability starts to slip.

 

Personally I believe in climate change, however I am sceptical as to how much the human race is adding to the natural cycle we are in. Yes we are having an effect to speed things up but if this is dramatic or minor is the real question.

 

I am interested in comments earlier about EV being cheaper to manufacture, so why still so expensive?


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  Reply # 1846134 14-Aug-2017 08:15
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dickytim:

 

MikeB4: A question I have is why are folks who suggest changes and promote the idea of saving the only viable home we have while it is still viable treated with such disdain ?

 

In my opinion, when anyone gets rich of these kind of theories, ridiculous trading schemes where there is a huge money-go-round that is where the creditability starts to slip.

 

Personally I believe in climate change, however I am sceptical as to how much the human race is adding to the natural cycle we are in. Yes we are having an effect to speed things up but if this is dramatic or minor is the real question.

 

I am interested in comments earlier about EV being cheaper to manufacture, so why still so expensive?

 

 

Humans being humans, they will latch onto anything that makes money. That's the human effect not the conspiracy effect IMO


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  Reply # 1846147 14-Aug-2017 08:21
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dickytim: I am interested in comments earlier about EV being cheaper to manufacture, so why still so expensive? 

 

I would imagine that, at the moment, it comes down to the same thing as any new(ish) technology - low numbers being produced combined with high R&D costs. As more vehicles become available we should see costs tumble.


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  Reply # 1846148 14-Aug-2017 08:21
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cadman:

 

I certainly don't believe anthropogenic sources are a significant factor in climate change.

 

 

I assume you're still meaning globally. What about local rather than global? Do you think it's possible to change the climate of a city or town? A country? A continent?

 

 


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  Reply # 1846149 14-Aug-2017 08:31
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dickytim:

 

MikeB4: A question I have is why are folks who suggest changes and promote the idea of saving the only viable home we have while it is still viable treated with such disdain ?

 

In my opinion, when anyone gets rich of these kind of theories, ridiculous trading schemes where there is a huge money-go-round that is where the creditability starts to slip.

 

Personally I believe in climate change, however I am sceptical as to how much the human race is adding to the natural cycle we are in. Yes we are having an effect to speed things up but if this is dramatic or minor is the real question.

 

I am interested in comments earlier about EV being cheaper to manufacture, so why still so expensive?

 

 

 

 

As techies we are aware of the cost of development, the manufacturers will have Board room pressure to get a return on the investment as soon as able, so as usual early uptake means higher price. Remember how much the relative cost of a PC was in the late 80's through the 90's. Imagine what the cost of a Benz or even a Model T would be in todays dollars.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  Reply # 1846152 14-Aug-2017 08:38
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dickytim:

 

 

 

I am interested in comments earlier about EV being cheaper to manufacture, so why still so expensive?

 

 

I strongly assume EV engines are much cheaper to manufacture, much simpler. BUT, they are manufactured in very low numbers, so they wont have the efficiencies of ICE manufacturing plants. Short production runs, etc. The batteries seem to add over 10k, so a double hit. Both will drop in time




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  Reply # 1846178 14-Aug-2017 09:56
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Geektastic: I'm in Vietnam as I write this. In two days, I've seen more vehicles than I see in a year in NZ.

China and India will doubtless be even worse. We could all start riding horses and living in caves in NZ but unless we can figure out how to get these billions out of their cars, trucks, buses, mopeds etc we may as well try and raise sea level by spitting into the ocean.

 

It sure is good to travel and to see first-hand what a tiny proportion of the global greenhouse gas emissions problem New Zealand is. So let's get it in perspective, New Zealand contributes about one-fifth of 1% of the world's harmful emissions.

 

But, this doesn't mean we can sit back and do nothing as explained here by Paula Bennett when New Zealand ratified the Paris Agreement to combat climate change:

 

Climate Change Minister Paula Bennett said New Zealand wanted to be part of the first tranche of countries pushing the agreement through.

 

"We won't be enough to tip it over 55 percent, we are relatively small in the scheme of things, sort of 0.2 percent really, so we're really low, but I think it's really important to show that we are committed and ratifying early.

 

"This really does show a commitment."

 

But every time NZ EV enthusiasts make me feel really guilty about still driving my tiny ICE vehicle, I wonder how many other ICE vehicle owners around the world share this feeling? How urgent is it really that we all ditch our ICE vehicles and either walk, cycle, buy a horse or use electric vehicles?

 

New Zealand politicians don't think it's all that urgent, and although my next new vehicle will be an EV, I might have to wait a while for new EV prices to get down to a realistic level! Should I really feel guilty about waiting a year or two to buy my first new EV?

 

 


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  Reply # 1846189 14-Aug-2017 10:11
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I don't think it is about feeling guilty. It is about being aware, and doing what you can. My car is hardly an example of planet-friendly transport, but I hardly ever drive it, so the carbon load is very low. As a pensioner I simply can't afford anything else, but as suitable used EVs drift down to my price level I will certainly get one.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1846244 14-Aug-2017 11:04
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frednz: But every time NZ EV enthusiasts make me feel really guilty about still driving my tiny ICE vehicle, I wonder how many other ICE vehicle owners around the world share this feeling?

 

Can't speak for other ICE owners but I certainly don't feel guilty. Mind you I haven't had any EV owners trying to make me feel guilty. If they did they'd be told where to go fairly smartly and I wouldn't feel guilty about that either.

 

frednz: although my next new vehicle will be an EV, I might have to wait a while for new EV prices to get down to a realistic level! Should I really feel guilty about waiting a year or two to buy my first new EV? 

 

No. If it's out of your budget range that's nothing to feel guilty about. EV's are currently out of my budget range too - waaay out (not gonna buy second-hand). SWMBO is going through the process of learning to drive and wants a car of her own towards the end of the year. It'll be an ICE.

 

I'll be looking at replacing my current vehicle in 6-10 years, depending on how well it lasts, and will probably make the switch then as I imagine prices will have dropped significantly.


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  Reply # 1846695 14-Aug-2017 21:01
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frednz:

Geektastic: I'm in Vietnam as I write this. In two days, I've seen more vehicles than I see in a year in NZ.

China and India will doubtless be even worse. We could all start riding horses and living in caves in NZ but unless we can figure out how to get these billions out of their cars, trucks, buses, mopeds etc we may as well try and raise sea level by spitting into the ocean.


It sure is good to travel and to see first-hand what a tiny proportion of the global greenhouse gas emissions problem New Zealand is. So let's get it in perspective, New Zealand contributes about one-fifth of 1% of the world's harmful emissions.


But, this doesn't mean we can sit back and do nothing as explained here by Paula Bennett when New Zealand ratified the Paris Agreement to combat climate change:


Climate Change Minister Paula Bennett said New Zealand wanted to be part of the first tranche of countries pushing the agreement through.


"We won't be enough to tip it over 55 percent, we are relatively small in the scheme of things, sort of 0.2 percent really, so we're really low, but I think it's really important to show that we are committed and ratifying early.


"This really does show a commitment."


But every time NZ EV enthusiasts make me feel really guilty about still driving my tiny ICE vehicle, I wonder how many other ICE vehicle owners around the world share this feeling? How urgent is it really that we all ditch our ICE vehicles and either walk, cycle, buy a horse or use electric vehicles?


New Zealand politicians don't think it's all that urgent, and although my next new vehicle will be an EV, I might have to wait a while for new EV prices to get down to a realistic level! Should I really feel guilty about waiting a year or two to buy my first new EV?


 



I fail to see how it's important to anyone but New Zealand whether we ratify early, late or never. We're simply insignificant to anyone but ourselves. If it makes her ego feel better then fine but no point pretending anyone much cares what New Zealand does outside of New Zealand.







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  Reply # 1846698 14-Aug-2017 21:02
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Dratsab:

 

frednz: But every time NZ EV enthusiasts make me feel really guilty about still driving my tiny ICE vehicle, I wonder how many other ICE vehicle owners around the world share this feeling?

 

Can't speak for other ICE owners but I certainly don't feel guilty. Mind you I haven't had any EV owners trying to make me feel guilty. If they did they'd be told where to go fairly smartly and I wouldn't feel guilty about that either.

 

frednz: although my next new vehicle will be an EV, I might have to wait a while for new EV prices to get down to a realistic level! Should I really feel guilty about waiting a year or two to buy my first new EV? 

 

No. If it's out of your budget range that's nothing to feel guilty about. EV's are currently out of my budget range too - waaay out (not gonna buy second-hand). SWMBO is going through the process of learning to drive and wants a car of her own towards the end of the year. It'll be an ICE.

 

I'll be looking at replacing my current vehicle in 6-10 years, depending on how well it lasts, and will probably make the switch then as I imagine prices will have dropped significantly.

 

 

I guess it depends on how you define the term "budget range". At present, I think it's doubtful whether you're getting your money's worth when you have to pay a minimum of $60,000 to buy a NZ-new EV. Even people who have a lot of money don't like paying excessive prices for the things they buy (I guess that's how they ended up having a lot of money in the first place)!

 

It's interesting that Paula Bennett has just announced a new "hard" target to have one in three electric, or electric hybrid vehicles, in the Government fleet by 2021. Because there are about 15,500 vehicles in this fleet, that means that by 2021, the Govt is happy to still have more than 10,000 petrol vehicles remaining in the fleet.

 

This seems a very relaxed attitude to me that would hardly support the view of EV enthusiasts that the next vehicle we buy must be an EV if the planet is to be saved. Some EV enthusiasts even go as far as saying that we all need to make financial sacrifices now (for the good of the planet) and pay the excessive prices asked for new and used short-range EVs.

 

However, from the point of view of global warming, perhaps we really do have plenty of time to move to EVs, and even if we don't, it will take a very long time before petrol vehicles are off our roads.

 

 

 

 


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