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Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407745 27-Jan-2020 19:51
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Geektastic:

 

Must be 100% identical in every way to a current vehicle. So must charge in 5 minutes or less, must do at least 800km per charge, must be available in any vehicle form I might choose (ie new Land Rover Defender through to Subaru Forester) and the charging stations must be at least as frequent and accessible as the current petrol station network.

 

 

So a combination of requirements to make up a rather unique need


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Talkiet
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  #2407746 27-Jan-2020 19:57
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No, it's a set of requirements for many people who are not prepared to compromise on the historical functionality and convenience of their car for various reasons. Some people rely on their car always being able to be charged quickly. Some people might want an occasional 800km range with jerry cans on the roof for extra, some might want a car that's going to regularly tow a boat... EVEN IF they aren't common, they are valid - and NOTHING like unique.

 

I don't care that some people are prepared to compromise a lot of the historical convenience of ICE vehicles - that's THEIR choice... but I accept that many people aren't prepared to make that compromise.

 

Suggesting the requirements are "rather unique" is presumptuous and in many cases ill-informed.

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Rikkitic
Awrrr
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  #2407748 27-Jan-2020 20:13
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Your point is missing some of the broader context. If it is accepted that human activity is killing the planet, and we and/or our beloved descendants will all meet horrible ends if we do not significantly change our ways, then those who are unwilling to make any kind of compromise at all on the convenience of their chosen forms of transport are being incredibly selfish and criminally self-centered in their unyielding childish demands.

 

 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407754 27-Jan-2020 20:23
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Talkiet:

 

No, it's a set of requirements for many people who are not prepared to compromise on the historical functionality and convenience of their car for various reasons. Some people rely on their car always being able to be charged quickly. Some people might want an occasional 800km range with jerry cans on the roof for extra, some might want a car that's going to regularly tow a boat... EVEN IF they aren't common, they are valid - and NOTHING like unique.

 

I don't care that some people are prepared to compromise a lot of the historical convenience of ICE vehicles - that's THEIR choice... but I accept that many people aren't prepared to make that compromise.

 

Suggesting the requirements are "rather unique" is presumptuous and in many cases ill-informed.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

 

The vast majority of people use their vehicle to get from home to work and various other points of interest in the city/town they live in. Geektastic absolutely may need to do non-stop trips from Nelson to Dunedin. Others may regularly tow boat half way across the country. I'm not saying those aren't valid requirements but they are unique given the majority.


Talkiet
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  #2407756 27-Jan-2020 20:26
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Rikkitic:

 

Your point is missing some of the broader context. If it is accepted that human activity is killing the planet, and we and/or our beloved descendants will all meet horrible ends if we do not significantly change our ways, then those who are unwilling to make any kind of compromise at all on the convenience of their chosen forms of transport are being incredibly selfish and criminally self-centered in their unyielding childish demands.

 

 

With respect, I believe you're being overly emotional - specifically on the bolded section I highlighted at the end...

 

You harm your argument when you paint those who want to be able to tow a boat or drive off into the back country as childish criminals.

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Talkiet
4574 posts

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  #2407759 27-Jan-2020 20:28
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Obraik:

 

The vast majority of people use their vehicle to get from home to work and various other points of interest in the city/town they live in. Geektastic absolutely may need to do non-stop trips from Nelson to Dunedin. Others may regularly tow boat half way across the country. I'm not saying those aren't valid requirements but they are unique given the majority.

 

 

Unique?

 

 

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Rikkitic
Awrrr
15631 posts

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  #2407762 27-Jan-2020 20:35
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Talkiet:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Your point is missing some of the broader context. If it is accepted that human activity is killing the planet, and we and/or our beloved descendants will all meet horrible ends if we do not significantly change our ways, then those who are unwilling to make any kind of compromise at all on the convenience of their chosen forms of transport are being incredibly selfish and criminally self-centered in their unyielding childish demands.

 

 

With respect, I believe you're being overly emotional - specifically on the bolded section I highlighted at the end...

 

You harm your argument when you paint those who want to be able to tow a boat or drive off into the back country as childish criminals.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

 

I did use the word 'if'. I don't know if climate change is real, though I think it is. But if it is, then people have to decide whether they are part of the problem or part of the solution. Those who refuse to compromise on their comfort and convenience even a little bit, are jeopardising the rest. That is criminal indifference.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




Talkiet
4574 posts

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  #2407765 27-Jan-2020 20:37
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Rikkitic:

 

I did use the word 'if'. I don't know if climate change is real, though I think it is. But if it is, then people have to decide whether they are part of the problem or part of the solution. Those who refuse to compromise on their comfort and convenience even a little bit, are jeopardising the rest. That is criminal indifference.

 

 

You mean actual criminal indifference, or 2 words strung together to be as emotive as possible, without any basis in NZ Law?

 

Cheers - N

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Ge0rge
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  #2407767 27-Jan-2020 20:40
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Rikkitic:

Your point is missing some of the broader context. If it is accepted that human activity is killing the planet, and we and/or our beloved descendants will all meet horrible ends if we do not significantly change our ways, then those who are unwilling to make any kind of compromise at all on the convenience of their chosen forms of transport are being incredibly selfish and criminally self-centered in their unyielding childish demands.


 


 



To be fair, Geektastic is halving his current emissions with the purchase of a new vehicle - there's a significant change right there.

Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407770 27-Jan-2020 20:44
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Talkiet:

 

Obraik:

 

The vast majority of people use their vehicle to get from home to work and various other points of interest in the city/town they live in. Geektastic absolutely may need to do non-stop trips from Nelson to Dunedin. Others may regularly tow boat half way across the country. I'm not saying those aren't valid requirements but they are unique given the majority.

 

 

Unique?

 

Cheers - N

 

 

Does extreme minority suit you better?


Talkiet
4574 posts

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  #2407775 27-Jan-2020 20:50
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Obraik:

 

Talkiet:

 

Obraik:

 

The vast majority of people use their vehicle to get from home to work and various other points of interest in the city/town they live in. Geektastic absolutely may need to do non-stop trips from Nelson to Dunedin. Others may regularly tow boat half way across the country. I'm not saying those aren't valid requirements but they are unique given the majority.

 

 

Unique?

 

Cheers - N

 

 

Does extreme minority suit you better?

 

 

I'd accept minority :-) But not extreme minority...

 

The devil is in the detail... Both the following MAY be true and COULD both represent reality. Watch how they can appear different...

 

- 99% of all private car use would be satisfied with currently available EVs

 

- 40% of all families may require a vehicle for a trip that can't be done easily or conveniently with currently available EVs once every 2-4 weeks.

 

 

 

Now, don't argue the numbers with me - I guessed at them... My point is that they MAY both be true... If you quote the top number, then it sounds like 99% of people should get an EV (affordability aside) - but if you look at the bottom number then there's a regular large inconvenience for lots of families.

 

 

 

Anyone that won't acknowledge this sort of difference in framing is going to continue to be disappointed that mass public uptake of EVs doesn't match their idealistic expectations.

 

 

 

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407777 27-Jan-2020 20:54
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Talkiet:

 

I'd accept minority :-) But not extreme minority...

 

The devil is in the detail... Both the following MAY be true and COULD both represent reality. Watch how they can appear different...

 

- 99% of all private car use would be satisfied with currently available EVs

 

- 40% of all families may require a vehicle for a trip that can't be done easily or conveniently with currently available EVs once every 2-4 weeks.

 

 

 

Now, don't argue the numbers with me - I guessed at them... My point is that they MAY both be true... If you quote the top number, then it sounds like 99% of people should get an EV (affordability aside) - but if you look at the bottom number then there's a regular large inconvenience for lots of families.

 

 

 

Anyone that won't acknowledge this sort of difference in framing is going to continue to be disappointed that mass public uptake of EVs doesn't match their idealistic expectations.

 

 

 

Cheers - N

 

 

The mass market uptake has very little to do with the suitability of EVs but rather the cost and the lack of variety in the second hand market.

 

If everyone could afford a Tesla or even a Kona/Niro, that 40% category would more likely be 5%.


Geektastic
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  #2407850 27-Jan-2020 22:12
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Obraik:

 

Geektastic:

 

Must be 100% identical in every way to a current vehicle. So must charge in 5 minutes or less, must do at least 800km per charge, must be available in any vehicle form I might choose (ie new Land Rover Defender through to Subaru Forester) and the charging stations must be at least as frequent and accessible as the current petrol station network.

 

 

So a combination of requirements to make up a rather unique need

 

 

 

 

I never claimed it was unique.

 

 

 

In fact I think it is very far from unique.

 

 

 

At the moment the argument appears thus:

 

 

 

"EVs are good - you must buy one even if it doesn't really suit your home/business/lifestyle needs."

 

 

 

EVs are still pretty new tech and the available vehicle types are extremely limited, as are many other capabilities unless you opt for something fairly expensive like a Tesla.

 

 

 

The adage 'Build it and they will come' almost certainly applies. However...as yet, it isn't being built. We took something like 100 years to get cars to where they are now. It will take more than a comparative 5 minutes to make EVs fulfill all the needs people have for vehicles.

 

I have no objection to EVs in principle but for my work and my personal needs, there isn't one that will work yet.

 

I'd say that probably encompasses the vast majority of potential purchasers otherwise we would see Teslas etc everywhere all the time and we do not.






frednz

1431 posts

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  #2407877 28-Jan-2020 06:54
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Geektastic:

 

Obraik:

 

Geektastic:

 

Must be 100% identical in every way to a current vehicle. So must charge in 5 minutes or less, must do at least 800km per charge, must be available in any vehicle form I might choose (ie new Land Rover Defender through to Subaru Forester) and the charging stations must be at least as frequent and accessible as the current petrol station network.

 

 

So a combination of requirements to make up a rather unique need

 

 

I never claimed it was unique.

 

In fact I think it is very far from unique.

 

At the moment the argument appears thus:

 

"EVs are good - you must buy one even if it doesn't really suit your home/business/lifestyle needs."

 

EVs are still pretty new tech and the available vehicle types are extremely limited, as are many other capabilities unless you opt for something fairly expensive like a Tesla.

 

The adage 'Build it and they will come' almost certainly applies. However...as yet, it isn't being built. We took something like 100 years to get cars to where they are now. It will take more than a comparative 5 minutes to make EVs fulfill all the needs people have for vehicles.

 

I have no objection to EVs in principle but for my work and my personal needs, there isn't one that will work yet.

 

I'd say that probably encompasses the vast majority of potential purchasers otherwise we would see Teslas etc everywhere all the time and we do not.

 

 

There are, of course, two aspects to buying an EV. The first is simply a choice between a petrol / diesel vehicle (ICE) and an electric vehicle (EV). 

 

The second aspect is feeling a certain amount of pressure / compulsion to buy an EV because of the need to reduce our emissions. 

 

And it's "for the sake of the planet" that some people feel a strong need to buy an EV even if it's too expensive and even if it doesn't meet all their motoring needs and simply isn't as good as an ICE.

 

Environmentalists talk about the need to make some sacrifices in order to help reduce omissions and a switch to EVs wouldn't be nearly as achievable if people stuck to the line that an EV must NOW be able to have the full range and equivalent price etc of an ICE. Not to mention that you must be able to charge up your EV anywhere in the country in 5 minutes without having to wait in a queue to do so!

 

The "Greenies" often come out with statements like "Do you want to do your bit for the planet or not, and if you do, ditch your ICE and buy an EV now, or use a bicycle or walk everywhere"!

 

And there's a certain amount of truth to that. For example, the bushfires in Australia have stirred a lot more people into believing that we do in fact have a climate change crisis on our hands. Perhaps this may lead to a greater take-up of EVs in Australia (and here)?

 

 

 

 

 

 


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407917 28-Jan-2020 09:24
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Geektastic:

 

Obraik:

 

Geektastic:

 

Must be 100% identical in every way to a current vehicle. So must charge in 5 minutes or less, must do at least 800km per charge, must be available in any vehicle form I might choose (ie new Land Rover Defender through to Subaru Forester) and the charging stations must be at least as frequent and accessible as the current petrol station network.

 

 

So a combination of requirements to make up a rather unique need

 

 

 

 

I never claimed it was unique.

 

 

 

In fact I think it is very far from unique.

 

 

 

At the moment the argument appears thus:

 

 

 

"EVs are good - you must buy one even if it doesn't really suit your home/business/lifestyle needs."

 

 

 

EVs are still pretty new tech and the available vehicle types are extremely limited, as are many other capabilities unless you opt for something fairly expensive like a Tesla.

 

 

 

The adage 'Build it and they will come' almost certainly applies. However...as yet, it isn't being built. We took something like 100 years to get cars to where they are now. It will take more than a comparative 5 minutes to make EVs fulfill all the needs people have for vehicles.

 

I have no objection to EVs in principle but for my work and my personal needs, there isn't one that will work yet.

 

I'd say that probably encompasses the vast majority of potential purchasers otherwise we would see Teslas etc everywhere all the time and we do not.

 

 

The requirements you have are in the minority when compared to what most people use a vehicle for. Your requirements are shared by a very small % of the population.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's not the requirements that keeps us from seeing Tesla's everywhere in NZ, it's the purchase cost. In European countries where they have decent subsidies that bring that purchase cost down you do infact see Tesla's everywhere. The Model 3 was the top selling car in the Netherlands in 2019.


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